AP vs TM differences

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

hello out there in White Armor land.

 

I've read a lot of press around these parts about the differences between the TM kit and the AP kit.

 

most noted differences:

 

I must say that the thighs on the TM kit have those pinched tops, and I've even seen photo examples

of the upper thigh with those suposed pinched tops on them... but if you look at the armor

worn by harrison ford in ANH you can clearly see that the tops of the thighs are NOT pinched.

there are way too many curves and shapes introduced into the form of the TM kit for my personal

taste. it's like he took some cues from the C3po shapes and introduced all these curves into the legs

and forearms that are just "not there" on the original suits. some people like those introduced curves

and even think that they were on the "originals" but that's just not the case at all.

 

The Thighs are my main reason for not opting for the TM kit.

 

the main pro for going TM:

I like the flexible armor idea that is coming down the pipe! and I sure wish that TM would do

a resculpt of his thigh and shin parts. the only other element that I see on TM armor other than that

would be the biceps and the knee plate being a little off... the knee plate is too tall, and the small power

cells on the bottom of the left knee plate are the wrong size, the biceps on the TM and the AP kit seem to be

a little shorter than actual suits.

 

if he took off those pinched elements I'd get a TM suit in a second!

 

Overall I'd say that the TM kit is the BEST FAN sculpt armor in existance!

and if he did his thighs differently I would have it!

 

 

Points to consider for going AP:

I'd also like to point out that the thights, and the shins of the AP kit are not the same moulds.

none of the parts in the AP kit "fit together" in the molded form EXCEPT the shoulder bells, the biceps and

the forearms. The legs are very easy to fit together if you trim them out correctly!

don't cut too far.

 

Stukatrooper introduced the molded return concept, and I'd like to say

that a return on those parts just cannot be seen by the average

viewer, and I'd also like to point out... that while cool looking on one point, there

is the understanding that ANH armor does not have a return on the forearms

or any other parts, and actually is more like an ESB trimout.

 

You Don't need a modeling iron on ANY part of the ANH version

of trimout for AP armor. When AP armor is glued together, you

need to put a little torque on some of the parts for about 4-5mm

in difference, but then that introduced the screen accurate curves

in the finishing strips that can be seen when examining the look of

the forearms.

 

ESB armors pulled from the ANH molds and trimmed out for ESB have a larger

return on the forearms, and can be seen clearly when chewbacca is being cuffed.

 

 

The finishing strip trimming and the cutouts for the thighs vary quite a bit on the original armors.

you can see the backs of some thighs cross over and form a squared off corner on the upper parts

of the rear of the thigh at the overlap. and on the front of the thigh you can see several different

trimming styles used, some are not lined up correctly and show differences in height, and shape.

some of the trimming strips are 45d angle cut at the top corners, and go fully to the top and some

are squared off, and a little shorter... showing the seam at the top... These differences in trimming

seem to have led people to see curves, and pinches... in the shadows of the photos.

 

the main reason I purchased the AP kit was it's incredible accuracy! The only slight flaw that I see is that the

biceps are not as long on the sides, and the "thumb print" is not ridged like the original thumb prints were.

on han's armor, for example... you can clearly see the ridged area inside the thumb print, and the small

hook that TKDUENO pointed out...

 

I put up this post because there are a lot of people who don't own the AP kit, and are wondering how the kit

fits together. I'd never go ata, or laws, or any fan sculpt when such an accurate form. you don't need a

modeling iron to "correct" miss fitting parts. it's all in how you trim it in the first place. if you leave 2-3

mm extra and do a lot of test fitting, you can make all the parts fit, without any trouble at all.

 

When parts are cooling off the mould there is a very slight difference in them as they cool. some parts twist

as they cool, and some parts sag... on my AP kit I found that all the parts fit together within Millimeters of each other,

and any of the parts that some people have trouble with only require a little torque to line up!

 

I'll add photos, and screenshots to this post and eventually try to show the differences in detail.

if anyone would like to help clairify the differences between these two Awesome kits...

I'd sure like to see the help.

 

if anyone thinks I'm Bashing here... go back and read the post again!

 

this is about accuracy, and ease of use.

 

The AP kit is best, the TM kit is right behind!

 

regards,

 

vern

[firebladejedi[TK]]

Hi this thread is useless without photo's, so be sure to add those asap like you stated.

 

Also the AP kit has lineage to a Return of the Jedi suit and has no real ties to the original armour seen in Star Wars. The AP kit has been reworked to look more like the armour seen in the first film but has many flaws to closely resemble the ANH armour.

 

TM is the closest armour i have seen to resemble the original armour from Star Wars period. And i say that after owning FX, AP TE2 and TM, sorry Vern.

[TKDUEUNO]

When trying to decide which armor to purchase I made almost the same considerations, and I too was torn between AP and TM.

 

I chose TM in the end and here's why:

 

-it captures some nuances of ANH armor that AP doesn't have

-I couldn't stand the fact that in the AP both arms have the same duplicated pieces

-I didn't like the thighs' "pinch" too, and also pointed that out in a topic that you seem to have read, but looking to other pictures in the last year I'm inclined to say that the pinch was there on the originals, maybe not that evident but it was there (I modified mine with a heatgun to ease them a bit)

-I couldn't stand the slight blueish tint of the AP, that now seems to have gone

-I have a big melon, so I thought AP was too tight for me

-it's so damn sexy

 

AP is a great kit, but in my opinion comes second to the TM especially from an ANH point of view, simply because it derives from a ROTJ suit and was overmodified.

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

Hi this thread is useless without photo's, so be sure to add those asap like you stated.

 

Also the AP kit has lineage to a Return of the Jedi suit and has no real ties to the original armour seen in Star Wars. The AP kit has been reworked to look more like the armour seen in the first film but has many flaws to closely resemble the ANH armour.

 

TM is the closest armour i have seen to resemble the original armour from Star Wars period. And i say that after owning FX, AP TE2 and TM, sorry Vern.

 

I understand the lineage of the kits has been debated... and I agree... to a certain extent. after talking with mark directly for almost 3 hours on the phone

from abroad I would have to question the ROTJ statement for the AP lineage since the kit has all the aspects that I've seen on screen in ANH.

 

I was told directly by the owner of the AP moulds that the suit that the molds were cast from was an ESB suit. The ESB suit that mark took the moulds from

was silicone cast from a disassembled ESB screen used suit. that suit sold at auction for over 20k

the statement that AP was taken from a ROTJ suit might stem from opinions that Gino shared... I don't believe that AP was ROTJ cast... and then reworked.

 

that's just not the story from AP himself.

 

also brother, there is no need to be "sorry" because this debate probably will get some attention around here... and I'd like to see the debate carried out in this thread.

there are lot's of misconceptions being shared about "how hard" it is to put together the AP kit... and I found none of the problems to need a modeling iron.

 

let's let the photos and opinions show the story... and if it was a ROTJ rework... then he did a really great job of removing the "door trim"

 

The lineage of the kit even if it was ROTJ is CAST from the original. mark himself stated to me that the moulds of the AP kit were taken

from a screen used suit. and that according to him was an ESB suit.

 

The arms are the only parts on the AP kit that are Identical. the legs don't fit inside each other at all... and you can clearly see that the shins, and

the thighs are completely different parts...

 

I'm sure that people around here will debate the lineage of the kits... I only know what I've been told by the maker of the armor himself.

he mentioned that some of the "apparent myths" about the kit were out there... and Gino, and several other people have propagated those myths

to elevate their own kits above his. not everyone likes the AP kit... not everyone likes the TM kit. I for one, as the owner of the AP kit, purchased it

because of my own personal opinion about the details I've seen here on this massive site.

 

if it were without this site...I would have had to make do with the SDS kit... and you fireblade, or possibly sskunky would have had to mail it to me

from the UK.

 

so let's all gather together and debate quietly our opinions on these two great kits...

 

let the posting begin!

 

vern

 

I didn't want to steal photos from other people's posts... and I'd like to invite anyone with screen caps, photos of their armor and such to PM me

for any comparison photos they may wish to add. I'll be asking around the forum for some people to present photos... and I welcome

any corrections, opinions and data that might help those of us who are new to the debate here, to get a better grasp of all the subtle differences

seen.

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

When trying to decide which armor to purchase I made almost the same considerations, and I too was torn between AP and TM.

 

I chose TM in the end and here's why:

 

-it captures some nuances of ANH armor that AP doesn't have

-I couldn't stand the fact that in the AP both arms have the same duplicated pieces

-I didn't like the thighs' "pinch" too, and also pointed that out in a topic that you seem to have read, but looking to other pictures in the last year I'm inclined to say that the pinch was there on the originals, maybe not that evident but it was there (I modified mine with a heatgun to ease them a bit)

-I couldn't stand the slight blueish tint of the AP, that now seems to have gone

-I have a big melon, so I thought AP was too tight for me

-it's so damn sexy

 

AP is a great kit, but in my opinion comes second to the TM especially from an ANH point of view, simply because it derives from a ROTJ suit and was overmodified.

 

This post is a great example of why I put this thread here!

and from the best TM armor build I've ever seen!

thanks pablo for chiming in...

 

your photos would make for a great comparison to let's say Stukatrooper's, and for someone with the AP kit trimmed out a little more.

 

I for one... trimmed out my forearms with the return at the wrist, and at the elbow much like stuka did, mostly because I'm opting for

a cross between ANH and ESB trimstyles.

 

thanks for posting... and if you'd like to include your photos as a comparison set... I"d love to see them.

PM me and I'll work up a set of photos, as fireblade requested.

I'll openly ask anyone here to present their photos of their AP kit hint hint stuka?

otherwise I'll include my own photos when I get the Hi Rez versions shot.

 

again... TKDUENO has the best TM kit I've ever seen in photos!~

 

"troopers helping troopers"

[dougefresh]

Hmm. Some interesting assertions made here.

 

Just a couple notes:

 

ATA isn't a fan sculpt. It's basically 4th generation TE.

 

The Dan Laws helmets, and upcoming armor, ostensibly aren't fan-sculpts either, presuming he's working with *some* form of the moulds he created for TE.

 

 

I'll preface my comments by saying that I *really* like AP kits-- they look amazing, but...

 

Something to consider when calling them "the most accurate"...

 

Being that TE/TE2 derived from the same ROTJ suit that AP did, but have the benefit of having unique arms and legs, and not duplicates, I would argue that TE/TE2 is a bit closer to what's seen on screen.

It's also my opinion that the AP helmet (particularly the faceplate) has been cleaned up and sanitized a bit more than the TE/TE2 lids.

 

Gino's stuff provides a good contender for "most accurate" as well, but being that it's so rare, and I've only seen it in pictures, I don't have a very educated opinion about it.

All I know is Brak's Buddie's sandtrooper looks friggin' sweet!

 

I dunno -- the TM may not share the screen pedigree the other armor does, but ironically, I think it actually benefits from that fact in some ways...

The shoulder bells, for instance, seem far closer to the screen suits, IMO. And the same for the chest plate.

The cod and ab pieces also seem *visually* more similar to the original ANH suits than the modified ROTJ suits to me as well.

However, these are all purely esthetic similarities, since Paul built these from scratch and didn't cast them from an original prop.

 

As for the thighs being overly curved-- yes, the curves are a *hair* exaggerated, but personally, I like it.

AP/TE2/GF/ATA/CAP, etc. all seem a little blunted to me in comparison to the armor on film.

-------------

 

Granted, I think it's pretty conspicuous -- and kind of funny -- that so far all the respondents have been TM owners (myself included), but that kind of makes my point:

 

We all seem to have our favorites, and we seem to lobby fairly vocally that our favorite brand is "the most accurate".

 

It's always fun to discuss this stuff though-- I'm glad you brought the topic up.

I know I really enjoy hearing everyone's knowledge and opinions... I feel like I walk away a little smarter (or more obsessed? ) after these kinds of threads.

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[dougefresh]

Wow! Vern-- you must have been typing your post at the same time I was typing mine.

 

Did AP really say that his moulds come from an ESB suit?

 

It was always my understanding that AP was essentially a new name for the GF moulds, with a reworked helmet.

(For the benefit of anyone who may not know, GF's armor was purportedly based on the same ROTJ suit as TE and Gino)

 

Is that not the case?

 

Whoa -- that would be HUGE news! Someone got a hold of a DIFFERENT original stormtrooper suit?!?!?

[firebladejedi[TK]]

The thing about the TM armour is Paul always modifies his molds to more accurately represent the armour seen in the film Star Wars. I have a 2009 TM suit that has different and more accurate marks and shapes in it than a 2008 suit as worn by other troopers i actively troop with. With us all suited up we can sit there and discuss the added lines in my suit that are not present in their own TM armour.

 

I dont think the molds from AP have been adjusted much since he took ownership of the molds. Maybe there have been improvements with his armour since i owned a set back in 2008.

 

Everyone has their own opinion on what they prefer but when it comes down to accuracy comparing the fan made suits available to what was seen on screen, the TM is going to win hands down if you are wanting to compare it with the armour seen in Star Wars.

 

There has only been 1 suit of armour cast from the films and that was from Return of the Jedi.

 

Here is a photo of the original Return of the Jedi armour that was cast to provide armour for TE, GF, GINO, AP and the list goes on. And it looks to me if the rubber trim came off the armour just fine.

 

 

PS this is the thread from last year about the shape of the TM thighs, which i now have been changed since that discussion but i think the curve at the top is still the same.

 

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[TK bondservnt[501st]]

dougefresh said:

Hmm. Some interesting assertions made here.

 

Just a couple notes:

 

ATA isn't a fan sculpt. It's basically 4th generation TE.

 

The Dan Laws helmets, and upcoming armor, ostensibly aren't fan-sculpts either, presuming he's working with *some* form of the moulds he created for TE.

 

 

I'll preface my comments by saying that I *really* like AP kits-- they look amazing, but...

 

Something to consider when calling them "the most accurate"...

 

Being that TE/TE2 derived from the same ROTJ suit that AP did, but have the benefit of having unique arms and legs, and not duplicates, I would argue that TE/TE2 is a bit closer to what's seen on screen.

It's also my opinion that the AP helmet (particularly the faceplate) has been cleaned up and sanitized a bit more than the TE/TE2 lids.

 

Gino's stuff provides a good contender for "most accurate" as well, but being that it's so rare, and I've only seen it in pictures, I don't have a very educated opinion about it.

All I know is Brak's Buddie's sandtrooper looks friggin' sweet!

 

I dunno -- the TM may not share the screen pedigree the other armor does, but ironically, I think it actually benefits from that fact in some ways...

The shoulder bells, for instance, seem far closer to the screen suits, IMO. And the same for the chest plate.

The cod and ab pieces also seem *visually* more similar to the original ANH suits than the modified ROTJ suits to me as well.

However, these are all purely esthetic similarities, since Paul built these from scratch and didn't cast them from an original prop.

 

As for the thighs being overly curved-- yes, the curves are a *hair* exaggerated, but personally, I like it.

AP/TE2/GF/ATA/CAP, etc. all seem a little blunted to me in comparison to the armor on film.

----------

 

Granted, I think it's pretty conspicuous -- and kind of funny -- that so far all the respondents have been TM owners (myself included), but that kind of makes my point:

 

We all seem to have our favorites, and we seem to lobby fairly vocally that our favorite brand is "the most accurate".

 

It's always fun to discuss this stuff though-- I'm glad you brought the topic up.

I know I really enjoy hearing everyone's knowledge and opinions... I feel like I walk away a little smarter (or more obsessed? ) after these kinds of threads.

 

 

again, another post outlining the need to show those new to this awesome hobby the details surrounding the debate of armor accuracy@!

great photo source actually has been used before to show the details on the thigh parts in TKDUENO's discussion with TM's maker.

 

I applaud both TM and AP for their contribution to the accuracy of the hobby, and this thread's potential to showcase the differences is

the main purpose for this thread.

 

I don't consider AP to be the END all... of accuracy... after all... we soon will have armor from LFL itself that might contend with our

desire for accuracy. hopefully we won't see another rubies style incident with the new LFL armor that is coming out!

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[dougefresh]

I'm dying to know -- did you hear firsthand from AP that his moulds originate from an ESB suit, and not the GF moulds?

 

That'd be pretty earthshaking news.

 

As far as I know it, all the screen-lineage armor floating around comes from 2 helmets and 1 set of armor--

Have we been wrong about that assumption this whole time?

 

**Edit: oops, forgot about the ROTJ helmets out there **

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

I really like paul's attitude much better than mark's. mark has several things that make his

kit's show a little less in the area of accuracy. anyone with an AP kit who is really going to

want the high mark is going to need to do several things:

 

Get new Hovi Mic pa2 tips from a better source.

no Doopy Do's here... usually some stompers or an occasional keith.

 

get new darker lens, or make bubble, or get a smitty.

 

use a better strapping system than provided, altho the white velcro

is working fine for me at the test fitting stages... but if you're going to want

to move quickly you absolutely need the snap and strap with suspenders

 

no way around that!

 

If mark (AP) had the right attitude, then perhaps we'd see supporters

with banners and such... but nowhere do I see a banner that reads:

 

AP: possibly the best recast armor on earth?

 

If I saw the right hovi tips on AP's list of

 

"things to improve"

I'd have it like this:

 

new hovi

darker lens

flexible abs

 

for AP the issue of hovi tip accuracy was:

 

if there's 501st members who make more accurate tips,

then he'll just continue to use water faucets.

it was a cost issue and another part to cast,

and mold, and assemble was just too much for

his concept of price point.

 

If TM comes out with the 3 versions of armor with all the differences intact... then he should

be the LFL consultant for the new licensed armor. I'm sure that if enough 501st members

started a petition to LFL then perhaps GL would consider issuing a 501st "version" of the

armor as an "alternate/special" type of product.

 

I just liked the idea that I could get a suit cast from an original, no matter what "generation"

a silicone cast is... that's not much more than 1/2 a MM in difference.

 

my eyes liked AP in 2008.

perhaps my eyes and pocket would go TM if he offered

a TX version in flexible armor... then I would probably go that direction!

[dougefresh]

I'm hugely appreciative of the efforts Paul makes, as an artist, a supplier and a contributor on the board. He's awesome.

 

But I think AP has a fantastic attitude as well -- he makes a great suit, he delivers on time, and he stays out of the mudslinging.

Sure, he could bundle his kit with some nicer accessories, but the fact that he's dependable, consistent and low-key goes a LONG way.

He provides a nice product, and he doesn't succumb to the kind of self-aggrandizing dumba$$ery we see from some of the other makers.

What's not to like?

[TK-4224[501st]]

i´ve had an AP armore kit some time ago

it was the well known AP shape with all the ROTJ tells

if there is a new AP style please show us some pics to compare

 

 

and i wish i had seen the original ESB for around 20K

IMO a helmet would run for that price

[NAZGÛL]

I'm dying to know -- did you hear firsthand from AP that his moulds originate from an ESB suit, and not the GF moulds?

 

That'd be pretty earthshaking news.

 

I second that. Did you?

[TK-7980]

The only thing AP needs to improve, in my opinion, is the matching up of parts!

[Rolf[501st]]

The Dan Laws helmets, and upcoming armor, ostensibly aren't fan-sculpts either, presuming he's working with *some* form of the moulds he created for TE.

 

Dan Laws old work for TE should be: ANH screen used Brian R cast helmet/whit Dave M ear caps, and modify ROTJ/Tour suit body armor parts to the ANH TE line age suit we know of today.

 

Dan Laws new work should be: A 3D scan of the screen used ANH Dave M helmet, and 1 gen. cast of the Dave M ear caps.

All new body armor parts made up, based from he´s old work, and the screen used ANH LFL archive ref pic cd made by TE.

So the new body armor it should be all fan sculpt, as a new ANH suit on the street asap.

 

(i have been in contact whit Dan since 2007, and talk about he´s new upcoming ANH storm/sandtrooper project.

He work alone, and therefor he´s work is slow.

He answer he mails alone too, so the updates are low.

Last update is... he will make 10 of he´s new DL ANH suits before 2010.

(as far as i know he take no orders right now, but only finish the ones from the order list)

He have made the helmet, and all body parts.

Minus the belly, and but.

He´s working on the belly right now, and from there he only need to make the but, and it should be a easy part he said)

 

Cheers

[dougefresh]

Thanks for the insight, Rolf!

 

I had no idea he was re-creating the armor from scratch.

Cool!

[Rolf[501st]]

Thanks for the insight, Rolf!

 

I had no idea he was re-creating the armor from scratch.

Cool!

 

Your welcome Doug.

I can´t wait to get my suits home, i have order both ANH DL TK, and TD.

I just hope, they will be spot on screen accurate all the way.

I order, and pay in december 2008.

Cheers bro

[Runnriottt]

TM to AP. Kinda like Apples to Oranges.

 

Really, TM is very very different than any of the other armor in fandom. At least on the helmet, as I have had the AP next to the TM...

 

I have never seen AP armor first hand.

 

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[NAZGÛL]

Thanks for the great side by side pic! Very interesting!

[jk007]

Hi guys new to the forum have nearly completed my AP Armour and posting for clearance i purchased mine may this year and must admit had no problems would kie to see diff between AP and TM.

 

Here is my AP Armour 99% complete i hope this helps

 

 

quote name='NAZGÛL' date='Oct 28 2009, 12:59 AM' post='111910']

Thanks for the great side by side pic! Very interesting!

[james007bond[TK]]

As an owner of AP armour, is it better then TM, well that's subjective and is a matter of opinion. I have trooped a few times and each time I see TM armour, I admire it... I admire the lines, I admire the curves, I admire the quality..... Ask FBJ, at my first troop I would have ripped the armour of his body just to try it.... My suit is EIB standard, yet there is something about it that does not please me.... I want better and in my opinion TM is that.... Everytime I see a TM suit, I yearn to own one...... Yes the thighs have a slight pinch.... and yes there are some marginal curves.... but stand an AP trooper next to a TM trooper ... it's simply no contest..... With that in mind, I am seriously considering selling my AP armour (lock, stock & barrel) to move onto TM.......

 

jk007, nice pics buddy... armour looks good on ya.....

 

Oh and here's me on a jolly....

 

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Edited February 25, 2022 by gmrhodes13
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[firebladejedi[TK]]

Looking through some pics for ref doing my ESB i saw this pic and immediately thought of this thread.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by gmrhodes13
photo updated gmrhodes13 2021

[89Batman[TK]]

Good post Mark-there endeth the discussion!

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

well... it does not end any discussion... actually it helps to show my opinion about the thighs just as a simple example.

 

from what I see in the above photo used, first of all it looks like the trooper wearing the armor is taller than most,

with a larger thigh to belt gap that can be seen on taller troopers.

 

on the left thigh... it was trimmed correctly and glued correctly on the finishing strip.

 

but on the right thigh.. the front edge of the outermost part of the thigh seem to have been trimmed SHORTER,

so with the incorrect trimming job done by MOLLO's team... what produces armor that looks

like that... is IMPROPERLY matched up, and incorrectly trimmed parts.

 

there is No pinch like that on the armor in the Docking Bay Control room scene.

you can see clearly the side profile of HAN SOLO's armor... look there... no mismatched

outer thigh. thus no APPARENT PINCH.

 

you can see it in the garbage masher, and other places.

in the TM comparison photo I really see all those exaggerated curves that everyone

likes about the TM kit.

 

the shadows that are producing those extreme curves are sculpted INTO the look of the TM

armor and it's very obvious when you compare those photos to the TM sculpt.

 

if you look at the curves of the TM sculpt, and the AP cast, in the same lighting... you'd see that

the AP is going to give you the right curves...

 

True... TM is a very curve and swoop type of armor... and that's what makes it so "sexy" in some people's

minds...

 

I just brought up this discussion... and the folks over there in the UK certainly have my respect and admiration.

after all... every single part I've purchased is from the UK or from CANADA... so the whole global thing is

pretty big.

 

I also have purchased parts from AP and from TM... so I'm in the same camp as far as it goes.

 

This is not about "what is right" this is about showcasing the differences between the BEST 2 kits in

stormtrooper Lore..

 

I have gotten permission from TM owners, and AP owners... so soon we'll see photos that will

show more information than on just one shadowed photo used as comparison.

 

I look forward to much more photographic comparison and you'll soon see a lot of

photos on the subject.

 

so let's all praise both AP and TM for all of this... because that's what this thread is all about.

 

regards,

 

vern