Talking about recasted armor or pointing fingers?

[Dmian]

Well, most of the time I read a thread about recasting or recasted armor I only see finger pointing, accusations, etc.

But I never see discussions about the merits (or lack of) of the result of such recasts.

I mean, if you just plain recast another armor the results are not nice, you end up with a soft-looking, detail-less armor. A +1 generation armor that is worse than the original.

But some of the recasters take the time to work on the molds they take from other armor, in some cases improving the original armor in different ways.

So, not all the recasts are equal.

Could it be possible to talk about such recasters or recast work? People who have contributed by modifying the molds they took (with or without permission) from other armor?

Just a thought (and possibly the only positive use I can think of for this forum.)

[sskunky]

I think this is a very interesting subject and one that get's a lot of bad press.

Years ago I thought it would be a good idea to mold a set of a known makers armor that is renowned for not fitting together properly. Like many.....

But when I bought the subject up I was basically shot down where I stood!

I thought it would be beneficial to the community to have a set of armor and lids that fitted together seamlessly and even a novice with basic modeling skills could put it together. This would basically mean reworking nearly every piece of the jigsaw so to speak. Not an easy job and not one many have taken on.

What gets me about this topic is that it seems OK for the few to get away with it it it benefits certain people in the loop?

Someone said to me once that if you steal a car and repaint it it doesn't make it right and is still someones hard work that I would be ripping off, Granted I said but I wasn't simply repainting something. I was going to put a lot of hard work into this to make it something to be proud of.

But as you well know anything that is done in the world of recasting is frowned upon and I got so much flack for even thinking about it, I scrapped the idea and have since never thought about it again.

[Dmian]

Mark, that was exactly what I was thinking. There are some armors out there that have "flaws". While I don't mind it (my armor has mirrored pieces, for example) I could not avoid thinking "how come nobody tried to fix these flaws?"

I'm talking about "screen-accurate" armor here, that for different reasons have missing pieces (or inaccurate ones.)

I think that may be one of the reasons TM made his own molds: most of the screen accurate armors out there are not true ANH armor to begin with.

 

So, as I've said, not all recasters are equal:

 

1- There are guys who just recast a particular set, creating a +1 generation set (low detail, ugly quality armor.)

2- There are guys who take the best out of different armors and recast that (the quality is still bad, though the set is more complete.)

3- There are guys who recast one piece of armor, but touch up (or make new, if necessary) the molds to get better detail.

4- There are guys who take the best out of different armors and touch up, or make new molds to get better detail.

5- There are just a few guys who make their own molds.

 

From 3 and 4, there are guys who a) ask for permission to the maker of the armor they are recasting and b ) feel they don't need to.

 

I'm particularly infuriated by those who recast armor from group 5.

I sympathize with recasters in group 3a and specially 4a. They know the community and take the time to contact the makers explaining their intentions.

I avoid those in group 1 and 2. And advice other people to avoid them at all cost.

 

And I want to know if there's any merit to those in group 3b and 4b (even though I think it would be easier for them to just ask, and a lot of problems could be avoided.)

Yes, they should've asked before doing anything. But they also put something on it. They worked on the molds. So, should they be considered? Or should they be ignored? What if the result is good?

I think those are very tricky questions.

That's mainly the idea.

 

I'd like to know what other people think about it.

[Sgt JB]

I had brought up a similar topic, taking a piece and modifying it to fit better. I was referring to personal use, not for sale. I have thought of learning how to make armor, and I thought it would be a fun hobbie to get into. Problem is I don't have the artistic skill to make an armor mold from scratch. I'd be good at modifying a mold but I don't think I could make a set from scratch. Since I don't think that copying someone else's work is right, I'd never make copies, even if I was going to refine them, and rework them. I think this discussion has merrit,but I don't think that copying others work is a very honorable way to do things, and IMHO goes agains the moral fiber of the 501st in general.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Since I don't think that copying someone else's work is right, I'd never make copies, even if I was going to refine them, and rework them. I think this discussion has merrit,but I don't think that copying others work is a very honorable way to do things, and IMHO goes agains the moral fiber of the 501st in general.

 

QFT!

 

I agree - whether "improving" or not, those recasting others work (and not inconsiderable investment) are deluding themselves if they say theyre only in it for the "good of the hobby". Theyre either after the cash or the kudos. Usually both.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[TooMuchGarlic]

I can only say one thing. Wonder why there are no cast from screen used Biker Scout armor and helmets? Wonder why there are no cast from screen used Royal Guard helmets? Wonder why there are no real available über accurate cast from screen used Vader helmets available? Wonder why many things aren't available?

 

It's quite simple. Who wants to feed greedy recasters and buyers of recasts. Who wants to take the risk and damaging an original piece just to feed the greedy, needy, complaining masses who'll just rather turn around and stab you in the back than thank you for taking the time, spending the money, risking damaging an original piece to offer this to you.

 

Who wants that waste of time, when the community doesn't even protect your effort and investment, but just allows others to profit from what you offered and when he tries to complain he just gets a shrug and the words: well, you recast it in the first place, so go cry in a corner.

 

Until recasters buy an original, mold it and sell it at the cheap prices they are selling their recast wares... THEN I'll believe that they aren't doing it for the money, but for the hobby. Until then they can go kiss my furry butt with their lame reasons for recasting... and what is okay in the 501st or costuming community is no means the same as what is okay in the prop community and since the costuming community gets their fix from the prop community... at least show a little more respect to that community - 'cause what was wrong with the FX if it wasn't the costumers wanting something better? The kids wouldn't care crap. The blatant acceptance and non-action against recasters in the costuming community affects BOTH communities as the cool stuff is now not worth for the owners of original pieces to risk molding to bring to the masses.

 

That's what you get from accepting and "approving" these leeches. It affects us all.

[lightside]

Just one question:

Why TE, or TM, or AP are justified in copying other people work (in example: LucasFilm/SDS armor design) and others are not?

[sskunky]

If you gain access to a screen used suit or you sculpt your own or buy moulds from someone that has then you have within the community the right to cast that and sell copies. COC amongst the community.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

That's an interesting question. LFL actually has an agreement with the 501st that 501st members can make armor for their own use.

[lightside]

That's an interesting question. LFL actually has an agreement with the 501st that 501st members can make armor for their own use.

Are you sure? In 2005, during a Con, here in Italy, I asked directly the thing to Sansweet. He answered me that Lucas was flattered by seeing such amount of people wearing SW costumes. The problem is that LucasFilm is a Limited and has many Companies which pay for licensing its products, such as helmets, armors, etc... (see Rubies) and they have their rights to see the products they produce un-replicated. No matter by whom, why or what.

This was in 2005, now I think that LucasFilm stopped run after copiers just because their number is too big, they're unstoppable.

[lightside]

If you gain access to a screen used suit or you sculpt your own or buy moulds from someone that has then you have within the community the right to cast that and sell copies. COC amongst the community.

I do not agree. It' like saying that if I am able to steal you a Ferrari I gain the right to copy it and selling it on the internet. Because the thing that is all made by fan for fun is a joke: They all sells armors to all the people indiscriminately on ebay or on their own sites.

Edited August 2, 2010 by lightside

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Are you sure? In 2005, during a Con, here in Italy, I asked directly the thing to Sansweet. He answered me that Lucas was flattered by seeing such amount of people wearing SW costumes. The problem is that LucasFilm is a Limited and has many Companies which pay for licensing its products, such as helmets, armors, etc... (see Rubies) and they have their rights to see the products they produce un-replicated. No matter by whom, why or what.

This was in 2005, now I think that LucasFilm stopped run after copiers just because their number is too big, they're unstoppable.

 

Yes. I heard it from him last year at D*Con in person.

[lightside]

Yes. I heard it from him last year at D*Con in person.

I don't doubt of that. But the question is "why he get payd for license his products by other companies and do not protects their rights?". Telling people in public that they can replicate a licensed product (with other companies which are paying for that) is a breach of contract to me.

Boh (means "I don't understand but it's ok"). In any case we're discussing the same thing in two different topics.

Edited August 2, 2010 by lightside

[TK-4224[501st]]

LFL actually has an agreement with the 501st that 501st members can make armor for their own use.

 

do we have it written or are these only spoken words which are not resistant at the courts?

 

IMO this is not usable all over the world

in germany for example every person can build an wear armors for their own use if they didn´t start a buisseness

so it´s normal here and do not break any laws if anyone building his own armor

 

and imo he would never say it´s alowed to replicate official or licensed products

f.e.

recasting a screen used prop

or recasting a licensed helmet like many of the MR recasts

 

spoken words are blown in the wind

[lightside]

do we have it written or are these only spoken words which are not resistant at the courts?

 

IMO this is not usable all over the world

in germany for example every person can build an wear armors for their own use if they didn´t start a buisseness

so it´s normal here and do not break any laws if anyone building his own armor

 

and imo he would never say it´s alowed to replicate official or licensed products

f.e.

recasting a screen used prop

or recasting a licensed helmet like many of the MR recasts

 

spoken words are blown in the wind

In these two days I took my time to read old threads of this forum and I realize that this kind of discussion has been made several times. The result is always the same: the discussion goes nowhere. There will always be two different schools of mind and I understand that for elder people of this forum these discussions are actually boring.

Edited August 4, 2010 by lightside

[sskunky]

I do not agree. It' like saying that if I am able to steal you a Ferrari I gain the right to copy it and selling it on the internet. Because the thing that is all made by fan for fun is a joke: They all sells armors to all the people indiscriminately on ebay or on their own sites.

For someone that has only 13 posts here you have very strong views about what we should and shouldn't be wearing!

Wether you agree or not is up to you. But this is the code of conduct amongst the replica community. If you don't agree then you can wear licensed products like rubies etc. If you want accurate armour and helmets then you have no choice but to buy screen replicas or unlicensed copies.

I am only stating what is accepted in the community not what is law. None of us have z legal right to copy anything without license.

Just out if interest can I ask what armour and lids you own? It would be very interesting for me to know this as you seem to take the stance that none of us should have anything but licensed products in our collections.

Edited August 4, 2010 by sskunky

[lightside]

For someone that has only 13 posts here you have very strong views about what we should and shouldn't be wearing!

Wether you agree or not is up to you. But this is the code of conduct amongst the replica community. If you don't agree then you can wear licensed products like rubies etc. If you want accurate armour and helmets then you have no choice but to buy screen replicas or unlicensed copies.

I am only stating what is accepted in the community not what is law. None of us have z legal right to copy anything without license.

Just out if interest can I ask what armour and lids you own? It would be very interesting for me to know this as you seem to take the stance that none of us should have anything but licensed products in our collections.

I know. Those were only my two cents.

About your question: I was in 501st in 2003-2005 with a FX armor bought directly from GalaxyTrading (owned by ex-TK510) with an AP helmet (you can see me in a fan-movie here

). At that time, AP made only helmets, not armors, and he made them without permission of anyone. Now AP is a credited provider of armors but he started as recaster as most of them. So why someone can and others cannot? This is the question we ask, finally.

I know and accept the rules, is only the incoerence I don't understand.

Now I bought an armor by an UK provider. He is probably a recaster, he sells on ebay and he does't use the name of the 501st or a famous producer to sells his products, he discourage it. Mostly he provides spare parts (a benediction) but also entire armors if requested at a reasonable prices for us europeans. Most of the providers are in US, but is not always too easy for us to buy oversea. So I accept that people, if honest, could become what people as AP became starting in the same way.

As a helmet I possess a second generation GF bought 2 years ago from a 501st member.

Edited August 4, 2010 by lightside

[sskunky]

Interesting that you don't own any licensed products and that you have bought from known recasters which in my opinion are at the bottom of the run.

FYI there will a European maker of accurate cast from original armorer very soon. ME.

[lightside]

Interesting that you don't own any licensed products and that you have bought from known recasters which in my opinion are at the bottom of the run.

FYI there will a European maker of accurate cast from original armorer very soon. ME.

And I will happy to buy.

Maybe I'm not be able to explain myself in a understandable english: I do not have anything against unlicensed products.

[sskunky]

And I will happy to buy.

Maybe I'm not be able to explain myself in a understandable english: I do not have anything against unlicensed products.

No worries and thanks.

I sometimes forget I am speaking to people who's first language is not English.

[john danter]

It was my understanding that there's an unoffical blind eye being cast over armour makers who sell to those within the 501st, for 'non profit'

No one does that as such, but if it's sold within the 501st, Uncle George loves what we do so turns a blind eye to us and where we get it from or where it's made.

 

However, someone like SDS, sho used to advertise his suits in UK lads mags etc was selling his suits to anyone who had nothing to do with the 501st. Uncle George didn't like that.

 

I'm pretty sure LFL could find out, if they don't already know who TM, RT etc are and then smack their bums. Buy a suit, pay and trace the payments using copyright protection laws or even underhand methods lol.

Wise they don't advertise who they actually are, but SDS did. He was a registered CO paying taxes and fully traceable in minutes.

 

As for recasting, I think it's a bad thing. Most armour out there is ironically a recast of SDS work back in the day, but I won't go into that one.

Other suit makers somehow got hold of a suit and made moulds, or bought a copy of those moulds and off they go.

 

They're not creative as such, may know how to flick a switch and suck with a vac former and cut out plastic, but that maybe where they're skills end.

TE2 has been touched up and 'improved' but is too clean for my liking. Not original looking at all but obviously super close. Way too sharp but people like it cos it looks sharp. So some think it's great as it doesn't like a soft recaster work. It's wrong, but sharp.

 

Other makers, TM for instance has made his from scratch with screen shots and a good eye. That deserves some respect

You could argue even he is stealing LFLs designs by making a 95% close copy of the SDS screen made suits but should we bother? No, hat off to him.

FX, for it's inacurracies is a fan made sculpt. Again, good effort

 

Bottom line is recasting is a bad thing. Destroys the work of the original makers or owners of a screen used suit.

 

That said, I'd get more morally offended by someone recasting TM than I would by someone racasting TE for example. Not sure why but I think more effort went into TM

[Murray1134[501st]]

I think John D hit the nail on the head.

 

LFL turns a blind eye to us because the makers don't advertise and generally don't make a profit on there items. That's part of the reason we don't publicly post armor makers names or contact info. We play by LFL rules, they don't bring in the lawyers.

 

The Recast debate is more of an "honor among thieves" kind of setup. We like those people who are a part of the community, help out, give back, do good work and we generally honor there craftsmanship. It's hard to have these kind of debates without going into armor history, which we all know is a complete mess due to *_ _* among others.

[TK6294]

I think we can all agree it is wrong one someone copies another persons product with the intent to make a profit. Especially if that product is still available from the orginal developer. The original product has the developing person's time, money, and emotion invested in it. It is one thing for that to take place in the business world. That is what patent lawyers are for.

 

I think it is much worse when someone does that to a fellow legion brother or sister. Personally, I would like to see anyone who does that identified so that I can avoid them both in buying from them AND from selling to them.

Edited August 7, 2010 by TK6294

[lightside]

We play by LFL rules, they don't bring in the lawyers.

 

I'm sorry, but... some of the "credited" sellers sell armors on ebay to everyone as well, not only to 501st members (like AP, for example). So how could you consider "playing by LFL rules" buying armors from them?

Edited August 7, 2010 by lightside

[carbonitekid]

I'm sorry, but... some of the "credited" sellers sell armors on ebay to everyone as well, not only to 501st members (like AP, for example). So how could you consider "playing by LFL rules" buying armors from them?

 

 

I do hope the mods will excuse this post but.......

 

For someone who claims to have no inherant interest in armour producing I cannot help but notice that 90% of your post so far have been either defending the position of recasters or justification of why anyone should have free reighn to do so or appear a hypocrite. Your posts seem not to be that of the constructive type, more of the "poke the stick in the hornets nest" type. Just wondering what your overall purpose of joining this forum was.