It's all recast

[TKDUEUNO]

Heehee!

 

Jez, you must be a fellow golfer!

 

Cheaper, imitation golf clubs are also known as "knock-offs"...

 

"Recast" = "knock-off" I love it.

 

T

 

Perfect definition!

 

That's why I suggest the armor producers to recast themselves and offer a cheaper and 2nd quality product...

 

Lots of big brands do the same thing: they have a simpler product made in the same factories but with a different brand, so people can choose the cheaper solution.

 

It works in many situations, It can work also in the armor business.

 

This way you could tame the recasters and money goes in the right pockets.

[HPDblues[TK]]

But it's not always about the money my friend...

 

T

[MiDri]

Perfect definition!

 

That's why I suggest the armor producers to recast themselves and offer a cheaper and 2nd quality product...

 

Lots of big brands do the same thing: they have a simpler product made in the same factories but with a different brand, so people can choose the cheaper solution.

 

It works in many situations, It can work also in the armor business.

 

This way you could tame the recasters and money goes in the right pockets.

 

Most armor guys sell bad pulls with thin parts for discounts. I personally think that a persons time is worth to much if they know how to do a good job to waist time on doing lesser quality items -- they could, however; make cheap molds and teach some one to do it and whilst teaching sell those suits for discount (because they probably would not be as nice.)

[sskunky]

Most armor guys sell bad pulls with thin parts for discounts. I personally think that a persons time is worth to much if they know how to do a good job to waist time on doing lesser quality items -- they could, however; make cheap molds and teach some one to do it and whilst teaching sell those suits for discount (because they probably would not be as nice.)

I find all this quite pointless. For example I'm a hairdresser and have been for over 20years. I pride myself on the quality of my work and charge quite high prices for doing so. This would be like asking me to do a half price haircut and put half the effort and quality into my work. I would not do that because my haircuts are my advertising. Crap haircuts = no work.

I cannot see any self respecting artisan doing this.

[troopermaster]

If you want cheap, lesser quality armour there are guys who sell this all the time and you know who they are. If you want quality armour then you have to pay for it. Like everything in this world, you get what you pay for.

[dougefresh]

If you want cheap, lesser quality armour there are guys who sell this all the time and you know who they are. If you want quality armour then you have to pay for it. Like everything in this world, you get what you pay for.

 

As a Democrat, I'm loathe to reference Ayn Rand, but the assumption that *want* constitutes *entitlement* is just ridiculous.

 

Nobody has a RIGHT to an artist's work.

Just because you want a product, it doesn't mean the producer is obligated to give it to you.

 

I *want* a new washing machine.

Is Kenmoore obligated to give it to me for free, or next to nothing, just because it would help me out?

 

They can charge whatever they deem fair, and you can either accept it and pay up, or find another provider who sells at a price you can afford.

The whole transaction is COMPLETELY, UTTERLY mutually consensual.

And if it's not-- it's charity, or theft.

Period.

[TK4205]

To say that "its all recast" is a lazy argument, suggesting that everything is fair game. This road only stifles people prepared to invest in bringing something new to the hobby.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

Thank you for that quote Jez, but I'm afraid you miss quoted me, or at the very least misunderstood what I had said.

In no way do I suggest that recasting is "fair game". I was merely kicking off the new section with a recast thread.

 

Here is where I stand;

As a staff member here at FISD I feel it my responsibility to welcome and show respect to every new trooper and offer help with mods or pointing people in the direction for supplies. I get bummed when I see new members being berated and ousted by people that are in it for the buck or come across with the holier than thou attitude.

 

To everyone that feels they got ripped off in their armor making endeavor; If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

[HPDblues[TK]]

Hey Doug,

 

What about this one from Ayn Rand:

 

"There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil."

 

T

[Star Wars Helmets]

I didnt mean to mis-quote you TK-4205 if thats what you meant

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[dougefresh]

Hey Doug,

 

What about this one from Ayn Rand:

 

"There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil."

 

T

 

Haha!

 

That's *exactly* why I'm fascinated by Ayn Rand, and *exactly* why I can't stand her.

 

I tend to believe that there are very few things in life that are absolute.

I try my hardest not to be a flake, but I'm often honestly stuck in the middle on a lot of issues. Which, I guess makes me "evil".

 

I disagree vehemently with most of her moral philosophy, but I do line up with quite a bit with her take on capitalism.

So there I am again... evil and in the middle.

 

** EDIT ** -- Sorry for running my mouth off so much today, but I'm snowed in at home, and have no desire to work.

[TKDUEUNO]

If you want cheap, lesser quality armour there are guys who sell this all the time and you know who they are. If you want quality armour then you have to pay for it. Like everything in this world, you get what you pay for.

 

I know that very well, in fact I bought your armor and waited over a year to get it!

 

In the end what I was suggesting is almost what's already happening with ATA.

 

Details are not as sharp as TE2 and it's two generations far from it, but it's well made and cheap and lots of people are choosing it.

 

I'm not talking about bad pulls or shucksty pieces that can lower the armourer's reputation and image, what I'm saying is that if a master armourer pulls good quality suits with less detail and cheap price, maybe the recasters would have a tougher time selling their product. And I know sometimes it's not just for the money, but most of the times it's like that for the recasters.

[TKDUEUNO]

I find all this quite pointless. For example I'm a hairdresser and have been for over 20years. I pride myself on the quality of my work and charge quite high prices for doing so. This would be like asking me to do a half price haircut and put half the effort and quality into my work. I would not do that because my haircuts are my advertising. Crap haircuts = no work.

I cannot see any self respecting artisan doing this.

 

I'm not taliking about less effort, but less money for a simpler result with the same effort and quality.

 

If another hairdresser not as good as you comes to town and charges half of you, maybe you're gonna lose clients.

But if you start doing simpler haircuts with the same effort and quality at a lower price, maybe you won't lose clients.

 

You are already doing that, you charge more for a complicated hairdress for a bride than a boy's haircut, but your quality and professional level comes through in both.

 

It's just about widening the offer.

 

For example many expensive and cheap shampoos/pet foods/detergents are exactly the same. The same products made in the same factory have different names/brands/packages and are sold at different prices. The quality and effort to made them is the same, but with different prices you can gather clients in both high-spending and low-spending people.

If you have only expensive products, people with less money won't buy them and will turn to other brands, in our case recasters.

 

I'm not saying that it's best, it's just another business tactic that maybe could render recasters less harmful

[troopermaster]

I might be wrong here Pablo but it sounds as though you are asking makers to lower their standards just to satisfy people who don't want to spend money on quality armour.

 

Using the anology with the hairdresser, maybe if he loses clients to the cheaper guy, they are not the clients he wants. If the hairdresser decides to lower his prices to keep clients and do basic haircuts then he is lowering his standards in my book. The hairdresser should raise his prices to keep those other clients out of his salon!

[TKDUEUNO]

I might be wrong here Pablo but it sounds as though you are asking makers to lower their standards just to satisfy people who don't want to spend money on quality armour.

 

No, I'm not saying that and I for sure don't want especially you to lower your standards! In fact you are constantly raising them

 

I'm talking about widening the offer to render the recast products unappealing, since the recasters here are the problem.

 

If I want an armor but I don't want to spend too much, I'd rather buy cheaper 2nd quality product from the main armourer than a recast from an unknown guy.

 

We have TE2 and ATA that are a clear example of that. But they could be the same person

 

I'm not talking about lowering prices for the good stuff, but add 2nd quality stuff to the offer to avoid losing potential clients in favour of the recasters.

 

Offer both, not just one or the other. Two levels of product, but with the same quality and effort.

 

Like Audi and Volkswagen that share half the technology. Like Frieskies and Purina.

 

Again, it's just a suggestion, and it's not even mine it comes from a friend's GF, I just elaborated it a bit

 

 

Using the anology with the hairdresser, maybe if he loses clients to the cheaper guy, they are not the clients he wants. If the hairdresser decides to lower his prices to keep clients and do basic haircuts then he is lowering his standards in my book. The hairdresser should raise his prices to keep those other clients out of his salon!

 

 

Sure! That's the other business tactic

[oiftanker]

how about ABS and HIPS armor from same maker... i wondered why i havent seen this

[TKDUEUNO]

how about ABS and HIPS armor from same maker... i wondered why i havent seen this

 

That's EXACTLY what I was about to say.

 

But maybe all my line of thought doesn't work because I'm taking industrial products as an example, while here we're talking about hand-made armors done by artisans

[troopermaster]

A first rate maker doesn't make second rate armour, let alone sell it. I would never consider making inferior armour just to sell more kits.

 

I can see where you are going with this but for me personally, I would charge the same amount for either quality or material used. A man who does a job wants paying the same money for the same job regardless of who he is working for. Asking him to charge less for the same amount of time and effort he has put into completing his job because the customer either doesn't want to pay much or use inferior materials is a bit selfish. If you want a cheap job doing, get the cowboys in, not the professionals.

[Jumpin Jax]

But in an English court of law they are! The license only last 15 years as it is industrial design.

Don't forget what is law in the States is very different to law in the UK.

Things were said by AA that shouldn't have been said granted, but it doesn't change the law and that is all GL and AA have on their side.

 

To pass judgment on someone from what you have read is ignorant so don't go there.........

And to just add that without AA none of you would be wearing that armor you are now....

Considering they would have just gone to another vac-former or made the mind boggling effort to to make their own equipment(after all the rest of the work done in the film, it doesn't even seem like a big deal), I don't see how he could have crippled the works in the slightest.

 

And he LOST in the USA, so the law will suffice. He took on a financial superpower with complete impudence with no contract, no backing, no real money, and yes, that IS stupid.

[Jumpin Jax]

I'm talking about widening the offer to render the recast products unappealing, since the recasters here are the problem.

 

If I want an armor but I don't want to spend too much, I'd rather buy cheaper 2nd quality product from the main armourer than a recast from an unknown guy.

 

We have TE2 and ATA that are a clear example of that. But they could be the same person

 

I'm not talking about lowering prices for the good stuff, but add 2nd quality stuff to the offer to avoid losing potential clients in favour of the recasters.

 

Offer both, not just one or the other. Two levels of product, but with the same quality and effort.

That is true; making recasting a waste of effort is the only way I can think of knocking them down a peg: spend the cash, cast it, then be unable to sell it because a better known and respected seller still owns the market.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

That's EXACTLY what I was about to say.

 

But maybe all my line of thought doesn't work because I'm taking industrial products as an example, while here we're talking about hand-made armors done by artisans

 

My understanding is because HIPS can be done with an inexpensive set up and also is very forgiving esp. to people new to the hobby. ABS is very finicky to work with and requires a serious upgrade in equipment. Also, while a lot of people like ABS as a final material for armor it's easier to form and build HIPS. Heck, even I've done that.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Considering they would have just gone to another vac-former or made the mind boggling effort to to make their own equipment(after all the rest of the work done in the film, it doesn't even seem like a big deal), I don't see how he could have crippled the works in the slightest.

 

But they didnt. The ANH production team were in trouble in 1976 and for better or for worse they went to Ainsworth and that solved a problem for them. However they were lax and didnt gain any kind of contractural agreement and this bit them in the backside 30 years later when the UK judge agreed (mostly) with Ainsworth.

 

AA added some "value" to the work he did on the production - although everyone will disagree how much this actually was. However, from a legal perspective whatever work he did do put him in a difficult position for lucasfilm - again because they didnt sort things out properly in 1976.

 

And he LOST in the USA, so the law will suffice. He took on a financial superpower with complete impudence with no contract, no backing, no real money, and yes, that IS stupid.

 

As you know he didnt contest the US case as (wisely as it turned out) his legal team believed that if a US company wants to stop a UK business doing something then the UK court is the place where it should be heard.

 

However I do agree with your final comment that he was stupid to take on LFL - however I do think that LFL was equally stupid to allow this whole issue to escalate without ever trying to resolve though dialogue first. The case will continue at the detrement to both sides which imo is madness.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Jumpin Jax]

Those things are true, no doubt about it. But much like the hero status arguments about David Prowse's contribution, it is overstated to imply that the man who got the job was the only one that could DO the job.

Forming the suits was a manufacturing step in the process, like any particular job on an assembly line. The sculptors are the only people I'd give the status of being indispensable, not the guy that pushed the button. A different former would not increase or detract from the affection for the costume, which was stated in the post I responded to. If it hadn't been AA it would have been somebody else with the same molds and same shapes. If it hadn't been Muir and Moore, etc, that shape and end result would have been different; that's the step where the interest changes for us, not the last one. You don't thank steel workers for the lines of an Aston-Martin, you thank the guys with the pen and the clay.

J

[JoeR]

Those things are true, no doubt about it. But much like the hero status arguments about David Prowse's contribution, it is overstated to imply that the man who got the job was the only one that could DO the job.

Forming the suits was a manufacturing step in the process, like any particular job on an assembly line. The sculptors are the only people I'd give the status of being indispensable, not the guy that pushed the button. A different former would not increase or detract from the affection for the costume, which was stated in the post I responded to. If it hadn't been AA it would have been somebody else with the same molds and same shapes. If it hadn't been Muir and Moore, etc, that shape and end result would have been different; that's the step where the interest changes for us, not the last one. You don't thank steel workers for the lines of an Aston-Martin, you thank the guys with the pen and the clay.

J

 

Didn't AA create the ears? I think the guy should get some credit. You can't just vac form any sculpture without amendments but JJ you are right, the essence of the character was there in the pictures of the sculpt.

 

Joe

[Star Wars Helmets]

Those things are true, no doubt about it. But much like the hero status arguments about David Prowse's contribution, it is overstated to imply that the man who got the job was the only one that could DO the job.

Forming the suits was a manufacturing step in the process, like any particular job on an assembly line. The sculptors are the only people I'd give the status of being indispensable, not the guy that pushed the button. A different former would not increase or detract from the affection for the costume, which was stated in the post I responded to. If it hadn't been AA it would have been somebody else with the same molds and same shapes. If it hadn't been Muir and Moore, etc, that shape and end result would have been different; that's the step where the interest changes for us, not the last one. You don't thank steel workers for the lines of an Aston-Martin, you thank the guys with the pen and the clay.

J

 

I agree with you Joey. But Ainsworth could have been responsibile for some aspects of the stormtrooper look (like Joe's said the ears) and also the black frown -which resulted from Ainsworths idea to split the face and back cap and needing something to bridge the gap.

 

In addition he probably added something to the armor, although I'd agree with you probably little apart from some detailing including the updates from the Sandtrooper--->stormtrooper.

 

For the other characters I dont know what level of involvement he had, and I dont think anyone truly does apart from the guys who worked on the movies themselves. He appears to have had quite a significant input in the TIE pilot character - although whether it was his idea to add the TK face to the Rebel XWing helmet is something we'll never know.

 

Same with the other imperial characters like the DS Gunner, Imperial Fleet trooper, Rebel Xwing and Rebel Fleet Trooper. We know he was given the core helmets to work from - but then he clearly added "something" thats given us the helmets we now all know. However, again we none of us know how much that "something" was.

 

Sorry to go OT

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Jumpin Jax]

Short answer: I'd love to know the facts 100%.