How many helmet styles?

[Verne]

Thanks for these informations Doug!

 

One thing that I noticed when I worked on my Hero helmet (ANH). It was a VT ABS kit.

 

I deformed a little the faceplate and it reminded me the ROTJ look. Thus I thought that LFL used a Hero helmet in order to create the ROTJ molds (and maybe an explanation on why there is just one Hero helmet which survived!)

 

I know, I have a lot of imagination.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

I've updated StarWarsHelmets.com to include a new page on this with more info

 

Star Wars Helmets.com - Were RotJ-style Stormtroopers used in ESB?

 

As we learn more about this I'll update as necessary. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

 

Absolutely fascinating! Thanks for posting this info Jez

[omp_uk]

Some more fuel to the fire.....

 

I got to compare an original Jedi helmet directly next to one of the haircell Empire (?) / Jedi helmets in the last couple of days and can confirm that they are definitely from the same mold. There are some minor irregularities on the interior of the helmet that match 100%. Sadly no pics as the owners didn't want any taken.

 

So, the haircell helmets differ in terms of construction in every way to the Jedi helmets, aside from the mold. So, were these a second batch of helmets made for the UK Jedi scenes, or were they made for Empire then reused in Jedi? The David Oliver helmet came from a Jedi extra, so it would seem that the haircell helmets were def used in some capacity for Jedi.

 

Confusing!

[TK-4510[501st]]

Ah!! now this is GOOD stuff

[geordietrooper]

very interesting info david thanks for sharing

[JoeR]

I got to compare an original Jedi helmet directly next to one of the haircell Empire (?) / Jedi helmets in the last couple of days and can confirm that they are definitely from the same mold.

 

Dave just to clarify this is no always the case, the background helmet moulds were used on close up/stunt helmets too. Not all the new Jedi helmets were from the same moulds, some where some weren't. There were 2 sets of moulds.

 

1) Background ANH/ESB style helmets.

2) Squished face moulds with new sculpted ears.

 

This helmet below is from the same moulds as my background helmet and as JBs and David Oliver's, but it has the Jedi decals and metal mic tips etc etc. BUT it is not finished with ESB decals nor resin tips etc etc.

 

If the Jedi background helmets were used in ESB then the moulds must have been re-used to make non-haircell helmets like the one below for Jedi, if that makes sense.

 

 

Just wanted to clarify that point.

 

Joe

[omp_uk]

Joe,

 

As far as I can tell there are two molds identified so far - the original for ANH and one made later - either during Empire or during Jedi. At this point I have not seen evidence of any additional molds being used.

 

Is the helmet you pictured made from haircell (which one is it, I may have seen it in person)?

 

Yes, it makes sense and I agree that if there were new helmets made for Empire then, based on the information available at the moment, the same mold was used for the Jedi helmets.

 

I may be able to add more to this later in the week ;-)

 

David

 

Dave just to clarify this is no always the case, the background helmet moulds were used on close up/stunt helmets too. Not all the new Jedi helmets were from the same moulds, some where some weren't. There were 2 sets of moulds.

 

1) Background ANH/ESB style helmets.

2) Squished face moulds with new sculpted ears.

 

This helmet below is from the same moulds as my background helmet and as JBs and David Oliver's, but it has the Jedi decals and metal mic tips etc etc. BUT it is not finished with ESB decals nor resin tips etc etc.

 

If the Jedi background helmets were used in ESB then the moulds must have been re-used to make non-haircell helmets like the one below for Jedi, if that makes sense.

 

 

Just wanted to clarify that point.

 

Joe

[AJCG]

Hey David, the helmet that Joe is talking about is the one I posted in this thread, the page #3 . The pictures were taking by Mike. I also know another place with pictures of the same helmet but I need some time to find it. I hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

A

 

http://forum.whitearmor.net/index.php?show...=8282&st=40

 

EDIT

 

Ok, I just found it.

 

http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_i...p;item_id=47459

[JoeR]

As far as I'm aware it is not a haircell one.

 

My point was just that there were 2 moulds. I have taken moulds from a background haircell helmet and non newer Jedi design shaped helmet and they are very different. I can't show pictures but they are chalk and cheese.

 

Any more informaiton would be great Dave!

 

Joe

[omp_uk]

Thanks for the link to the helmet - I have seen that one in person, it's a US Jedi helmet with a liner.

 

Hey David, the helmet that Joe is talking about is the one I posted in this thread, the page #3 . The pictures were taking by Mike. I also know another place with pictures of the same helmet but I need some time to find it. I hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

A

 

<a href="http://forum.whitearmor.net/index.php?show...=8282&st=40" target="_blank">http://forum.whitearmor.net/index.php?show...=8282&st=40</a>

 

EDIT

 

Ok, I just found it.

 

http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_i...p;item_id=47459

[omp_uk]

Joe,

 

I'd certainly be interested to hear about how the molds differ (PM or email if you like). I'm only going on what I've seen in person, which in the last week is four original helmets, two haircell Empire (?) / Jedi and two US Jedi style. Two originate from the UK and two from the US. The same mold was definitely used for all four - there are very minor flaws on the inside of the helmet that match up in exactly the same spot in all of them.

 

I am very open minded to the possibility of there being additional molds but the evidence points against it at the moment.

 

Hopefully we can crack this one!

 

David

 

As far as I'm aware it is not a haircell one.

 

My point was just that there were 2 moulds. I have taken moulds from a background haircell helmet and non newer Jedi design shaped helmet and they are very different. I can't show pictures but they are chalk and cheese.

 

Any more informaiton would be great Dave!

 

Joe

[JoeR]

Sent you a pm.

 

From the moulds I took from both of my original helmets, I am convinced there were two moulds for the film and they were very different in shape, and the ears were completely different.

 

Joe

[Verne]

No doubt about the ears!

 

For the faceplate and the cap and back, it's more difficult to see the diffrences. According to me, the vocoder is more sharp on the first style. Same thing for the eyes area.

[Star Wars Helmets]

I too have never seen anything to suggest there were two different sets of moulds for the face and back/cap. I too have handled a fair few RotJ trooper lids.

 

I can agree on the ears since they were always a problem (e.g. on ANH). The moulds were just not robust enough for volume vac-forming so had to be rebuilt - hence I could believe the same for RotJ.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[JoeR]

Guys it is obvious when you see pictures of the moulds from a background and non-background helmet. The face on the background helmets is much closer to ANH/ESB and a lot wider as opposed to the other much more wonky moulds.

 

If you take the time to measure the faces at certain points you will see what I mean.

 

I am not going to show pictures as I don't want every tell out in the open.

 

You will have to take my word for it, which I'm sure you won't!

 

Keith has seen both sets of moulds and will I'm sure explain the difference better than me!

 

Joe

 

EDIT: Ps: Jez I might send you pics, pm sent.

[keith]

There are two sets of molds for Jedi helmets as Joe has said.

 

The "background" mold looks like a ANH/ESB helmet, the "hero" helmet mold looks, well, like a hero (you know like the SE troopers) ROTJ helmet.

 

I'm surprised, as i thought everyone knew about the two different versions already.

 

I could be wrong, but I think that the background version may have been made here in the UK, while the hero version was made in the US.

 

Keith.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Hi Keith

 

Ive spent a lot of time recently looking into this issue so am a little confused by your comment over "background" and "hero" helmets.

 

So that we can all use the same terms, let me just reiterate what my understanding is regarding RotJ helmets

 

 

1) Rounded-Frown Helmets - these were all manufactured out of normal ABS. As their name suggests they had rounded frowns, new RotJ declas, Alu Mic Tips, HH Liners. These are illustrated in the L and R columns above

 

2) Square-Frown Helmets - These were manufactured from Haircell ABS, have squared-off frowns, ESB decals, Recast Hovi-mix resin mic tips, foam-padding. These are illustrated in the Centre column above

 

Looking through hi-def screen-grabs as well as on-set phographs from RotJ I'm having a problem seeing anything other than the RF (1) helmets above - so if anyone has any photos of the Square-Frown in RotJ I'd be very interested to see them. Maybe as Paul said they were just used in ESB.

 

Now omp_uk has had 2 RF(1, above) and 2 SF(2, above) helmets in front of him at the same time and is confident that theyre from the same moulds given certain tells on the inside surface area.

 

So Keith (and Joe) are you saying that having also examined both types of different helmets (RF and SF) you believe the tells tell you that they are from DIFFERENT moulds?

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[TK-4510[501st]]

Hey man.... All you guys have had real helmets in front of you... Next time you do, bring along a measuring tape for scale and a PMS book for color. That way we can nail ALL the helmet colors for good and have the perfect scale for decals, rubber trim, etc...

 

This is an awesome thread by the way, I am loving it!

[JoeR]

In a word yes! I took moulds from a SF and a RF and they are different.

 

Joe

 

Ps: I agree with the RF SF distinctions and I have NEVER seen a SF in Jedi. They were background helmets at most.

 

EDIT:

Maybe as Paul said they were just used in ESB.

 

This cannot be correct as my helmet came from the Deathstar set and I have documented proof of this, in a magazine interview with the first owner who is a prominent screenwriter.

 

Secondly David Oliver's helmet came from an extra in Jedi, so it must have been used in Jedi.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Joe - great we have agreement on almost everything.

 

The only thing up for debate is therefore whether theyre both from the same moulds. Though Ive handled both helmet types I've never personally had the two types side by side at the same time - so cant really comment further.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[JoeR]

Nice to agree Jez!

 

Keith has a better eye than me and he has seen both sets of moulds and we are both convinced they are different.

 

I think that the SF moulds were done at the time of ESB and the RF moulds were done for Jedi. This would make perfect sense as the SF mould helmets have the ESB decals apart from the TE helmet, so maybe the moulds were kept and re-used for Jedi or the odd helmet. But pictures will tell the story and you can see for yourself.

 

Joe

[trooper18938]

Guys, this is one of the best threads in a long time! Build threads are OK, but new information is always the best. Thanks for all the investigative work on this.

[keith]

Hi Jez,

 

The overall look of the SF helmet is more like the ANH/ESB. It has ears that have been cast from a ANH/ESB also. If both versions were painted up to look like a ANH helmet, then the SF would quite close to a ANH/ESB, but the RF would look more different.

 

There must be a reason why the ears were resculpted for the RF version and the only reason i can think of is that the ears on the helmet they were molding were missing. Experience tells us that it wouldnt be strange for an original ANH to have missing ears.

 

This is my opinion...The RF molds were taken from a ANH/ESB with its ears missing. The SF helmet was molded from another ANH/ESB helmet that didn't have its ears missing.

That would mean two different helmets being molded probably at different times, by different people in different places. Both molds would therefore have some differences other than the ears. Both molds were cleaned up which would have produced even more differences between the two.

 

Even if both versions came from the same molds other than the ears, the RF is much softer in detail than the SF which means at least that the new molds taken from both of these original versions are different and can only be used to make the version of helmet that they were taken from.

But i do believe that both of the versions of original helmets came from different molds.

 

Keith.

[troopermaster]

If both helmet types feature the same tells on the inside but look slightly different from the outside (more wonky/softer) then it's possible the RF is a recast of the SF. We know the SF helmets were made first, that's a fact, so it's quite feasible to say the later RF are recasts made for Jedi as only a few are believed to have been made.

 

Also, I suggested that the SF helmets were made for ESB and not used exclusivley in ESB as stated earlier. I see no reason why they were not reused for ROTJ

[omp_uk]

We know the SF helmets were made first, that's a fact

 

Whilst I tend to agree with this statement, how do we know it is a fact?

 

I still think that there was one mold for the face and backplate - when you have these things side by side it's hard to spot differences (with the exception of maybe the ears, which I'll look more closely at next time). There are also the matching tells inside the helmet. Next time I see the helmets I'll take measurements so we can move the discussion along.

 

As for the comment about colour - every helmet I have seen (maybe 12 originals in person) has been a slightly different colour shade due to weathering, UV damage, ageing etc.