How many helmet styles?

[Veedox]

A quick visit to Jez's great website has shown that ROTJ shoulder bells are rounded on the bottom edges!

[Veedox]

Wow, quick look back in this thread - Paul's screen grabs in the Freezing Chamber scene.

 

Don't know how I missed those!

 

Forget these pics, now THAT'S smoking gun evidence!

[Star Wars Helmets]

Long post – Lots to read!

 

Right, I managed to spend a few hours with John Mollo this afternoon to try and resolve the question over what Stormtrooper helmets and armor were used in ESB.

 

We spent a considerable amount of time looking at whether new Stormtroopers were made for The Empire Strikes Back but were not able to get a clear decision either way. HOWEVER there is evidence that there WAS “new” work done on the Stormtroopers and therefore I’d like to congratulate Paul/Trooper Master for pushing so hard on this issue since he has clearly opened up a very interesting can or worms. Paul – take this as a metaphorical pat on the back – well done!

 

As many of you may already know, John Mollo has proved to be a very reliable source of information for the movies he worked on since he kept chronological “sketch book’s” / diaries detailing all the work he did including names, dates, art work, “to-do’s” and design workings for his costume work.

 

Now to gain a thorough understanding of events (and to tie them into John’s dates) it would be incredibly useful to see a copy of the production diary/Shooting schedule for ESB – does anyone here have access to that? The ANH dates were published a few years back but I’m not sure about ESB (maybe we’ll get it when the new “making of” book is released?). Either way if someone’s got a copy and can mail it to me it would be incredibly useful.

 

Like I said we spent a lot of time going through the notes, with Mollo trying to add whatever else he could remember, “filling in the gaps”. What we got was that a maximum of 10 Stormtroopers were required for ESB and these were put together using ANH left overs.

 

However Gary Kurtz was not happy with their condition so work was requested creating a “Mark 2” version – and this included amendments to the existing helmets and armor – and importantly plasterers making a cast “off an existing model”.

 

Changes included the following:

 

Helmet

New liners, chin straps, trim and decals

It looks like they would have had “New Vac formed green eyes” although we know that for filming they used green acrylic on most (if not all)

 

Body

Most of the changes were to assist the wearers, such as “Elastic for the Shoulder pads”, “glue shoulders to arms”, “rivet and bolt shoulder plates” - although interestingly also includes “Edged (armor) body with white plastic” – something more commonplace on RotJ armor.

 

Okay, so back to the vac-forming. What is not clear is what specifically was done (helmet, armor or both). However, we do know that the Plasterers (who make the moulds) were budgeted for 7 hours work, with the Vac-formers another 12 hours (including forming and trimming)

In addition we have an idea of how much ABS they needed (just 3.5 sheets, but the size of the sheets is not known).

 

So we do have some information on what happened, but probably more questions than answers; did they just vac-form missing/damaged pieces or a complete suit? How many helmets or suits could you vac-form and trim in 12 hours?

 

So that’s the end of the info for now, although like I said I’d really like to see some shooting dates if anyone has them. John’s kindly agreed to check some other sources and I too will look down some other avenues.

 

Hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Verne]

Great informations Jez!

 

So they made new molds with plaster. That can probably explain the two types of shapes for ROTJ helmets.

 

According to my thin experience of vacuum forming, the plaster doesn't like to receive many pulls, especially with ABS.

 

So we can suppose that the molds were damaged and that LFL have made new molds. What gave the warped style helmets..... again, it's a supposition.

[littledragon88[TK]]

Interesting thread..and creds to Paul and Verne for all these new theories! And it's nice to see that mr.Mollo have been included in the discussion also!

 

Btw, is it true that a "making of ESB" book is coming along too? Is it the same author who wrote "The Making of Star Wars" book?

[JoeR]

Fasincating info fellas.

 

It makes sense that the ROTJ background helmets could have been used in ESB having the same decals. They could easily have had the frowns re-painted. Also that they have foam liners like the ANH ESB helmets and not hard hat liners.

 

Does anyone know the type of washers and bolts that were used on the ESB helmets mic tips to secure them, I know the type used on my background helmet, if they were the same this would add credibility to the theory?

 

See the square shaped washer/nut in this picture:

 

 

Joe

[omp_uk]

Hi guys,

 

I'm new to this forum but have been collecting original props for 9 years and have been fortunate enough to see and handle a number of original Star Wars props, including helmets.

 

Today I was able to compare a film used Jedi helmet (with strap / hard hat interior) directly against one of the Jedi (Empire ?) helmets that has the foam padding interior. For the purpose of this I'll call the Jedi helmet with strap interior 'Jedi' and the other 'foam'. These are the main differences...

 

1) Brow trim on 'Jedi' is taller by a noticeable margin (3 mm or more).

2) Mic tips on 'Jedi' are aluminium. Mic tips on 'foam' are resin.

3) Mic tips on 'Jedi' are smooth around the circumference. Mic tips on 'foam' have a number of raised ridges running along the length.

4) Ends of black teeth paint on 'Jedi' are rounded and finish about 1 cm after final tooth. Paint on 'foam' runs further down the helmet and is squared off.

5) Plastic interior of 'Jedi' is smooth to the touch, interior of 'foam' is an orange peel texture.

6) Jaw sticker stripe on 'Jedi has a margin around the edge and is a dark blue. Sticker on 'foam' is cut to the size of the stripe and the stripes are a lighter blue (I don't think this is a result of fading).

7) Interior construction differs - obviously one has a hard hat lining system, the other a foam pad.

8) Although the helmets appeared to be from the same mold, the crease that runs around the rear top of the helmet may be a little 'softer' (slightly less pronounced) on the 'foam' helmet.

 

In my opinion we are dealing with two different runs of helmets. There is the possibility that they were on the same production line but they had a mish-mash of components from which to make them. The difference in paint length along the teeth could be down to one guy painting them slightly different to the other people that were painting them. Who knows.

 

It would be interesting to try and find someone involved with the construction of the Jedi helmets so that we can gain more of an insight.

 

Regards,

 

David

[JoeR]

Dave

 

I presume this was my old foam helmet at Propstore of London with Stephen's hard hat liner helmet (Brandon's old helmet)?

 

Joe

 

EDIT if it is they are not from the same mould. There are differences.

 

I proposed this theory when I was selling the helmet to Stephen but he had little interest in hearing it. I will try to dig up the email.

[omp_uk]

Hi Joe,

 

No, these were two completely different helmets.....

 

David

 

Dave

 

I presume this was my old foam helmet at Propstore of London with Stephen's hard hat liner helmet (Brandon's old helmet)?

 

Joe

 

EDIT if it is they are not from the same mould. There are differences.

 

I proposed this theory when I was selling the helmet to Stephen but he had little interest in hearing it. I will try to dig up the email.

[Verne]

Intertesting to learn that one style was made with haircell ABS and the other with a full smooth ABS.

 

Thanks!

[omp_uk]

Btw, is it true that a "making of ESB" book is coming along too? Is it the same author who wrote "The Making of Star Wars" book?

 

Yep, same author and due out in March next year....

 

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Star-Wars-Epi...1829&sr=8-1

[troopermaster]

Long post – Lots to read!

 

Right, I managed to spend a few hours with John Mollo this afternoon........

 

That's great new Jez!

 

Thanks for making effort to get in touch with John Mollo to discuss this further. I am really looking forward to hearing more about the production of these new MK2 suits

[Star Wars Helmets]

My pleasure Paul - the most important thing is that we find the truth so we can accurately document it

 

David - excellent information thank you. I'm glad you had a chance to do that as it was something I was going to try and do. The bumpy internal texture does suggest Haircell ABS and this is something I had discussed with Brandon and Art Andrews so Its pleasing that all these strands are coming together.

 

Ive not yet managed to get a shooting script but from other sources Ive found that the majority of the Stormtrooper work was done PRE June 1979 (ie before these "Mark 2" Stormtroopers were worked on). However I believe they only needed 6 at a time and I wonder if the shots when they required 10 were done in late June - i.e. they could have produced additional armour/helmts or whatever in time for the Carbon Freeze scene (late June and into July I think) and the only shot I could see where 10 were required when all the Stormtroopers pour out of a door in a Bespin firefight (I think when the Falcons pulling away).

 

I'm ot sure whether you read my post but the bit I'm trying to get my head round is the relatively small amount of time/effort/materials they ordered (according to Mollo's notes). However maybe they worked quickly and the 3.5 sheets were large size ones

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[omp_uk]

Another way to try and sort this out is to find someone with Empire contact sheets and see if any of the Jedi / Empire helmets are pictured there. I know someone with access to some Jedi contact sheets and they can't see the Jedi / Empire foam interior style of helmet pictured.

 

I do know someone with some Empire contact sheets but they're pretty inaccessible - I may be able to get them in a couple of months.....maybe not!

[JoeR]

The background helmet pic I posted in post #56 shows the haircell ABS too.

 

Joe

[wannab]

Interesting read guys!

 

As far as ABS sheet sizes, in the sign biz it is standard to get 4'x8' sheets and cut them down to whatever sizes they need to end up at. I imagine in the UK they have a standard in that size range as well so I would bet that would be the size ordered.

 

Anyway keep it coming!

 

 

Doug

[Star Wars Helmets]

Interesting read guys!

 

As far as ABS sheet sizes, in the sign biz it is standard to get 4'x8' sheets and cut them down to whatever sizes they need to end up at. I imagine in the UK they have a standard in that size range as well so I would bet that would be the size ordered.

 

Anyway keep it coming!

 

 

Doug

 

As a side issue I just checked an inflation calculator and the sheets of ABS cost £16.50 each in 1979 which equates to £68 ($105) in todays money.

 

Now assuming ABS has increased in price at roughly the same rate as inflation, in which case that suggests to me that they were pretty big sheets. How big a sheet of ABS would $100 buy now?

 

Note that John Mollo said to me that the vac presses at Elstree were typically used for sets so I think they would have been fairly large.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Star Wars Helmets]

I've updated StarWarsHelmets.com to include a new page on this with more info

 

Star Wars Helmets.com - Were RotJ-style Stormtroopers used in ESB?

 

As we learn more about this I'll update as necessary. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Verne]

I have a question about the bubbles lenses of the ROTJ helmets (and same question for Hero and TIE pilot helmets).

 

According to Jez website, the lenses were made out of green acrylic. But I'm really curious to know how it's possible to vacuum form acrylic sheet

 

The less thick green acrylic that I was able to find (for my ROTJ helmet) was 3mm of thickness. And it's impossible to vacuum form, it's too thick. It's possible to heat and deform, but it's not also easy as with plastic like ABS or HIPS.

I never found less thick acrylic. Clear acrylic can be find in 2mm and less....but colored acrylic is in 3mm for the less thick.

 

So anybody knows the thickness of the original lenses and if it was really acrylic? (sorry Jez, it's not against what you wrote )

[troopermaster]

That was a good read on your site Jez and great to see John's notes/diagram.

 

I've stated these new suits were in ESB for a number of years now and it's great to finally see that new suits were in fact made for ESB. I hope that John Mollo will be able to shed more light on the actual numbers of helmets and armour was made and maybe the final construction used for the armour.

 

Looking at the diagram of the strapping I don't think they went with it after all, but I would like to be proven wrong From what I have seen of ANH and ROTJ armour, I have yet to see the hook and bar fasteners used.

[Star Wars Helmets]

I have a question about the bubbles lenses of the ROTJ helmets (and same question for Hero and TIE pilot helmets).

 

According to Jez website, the lenses were made out of green acrylic. But I'm really curious to know how it's possible to vacuum form acrylic sheet

 

The less thick green acrylic that I was able to find (for my ROTJ helmet) was 3mm of thickness. And it's impossible to vacuum form, it's too thick. It's possible to heat and deform, but it's not also easy as with plastic like ABS or HIPS.

I never found less thick acrylic. Clear acrylic can be find in 2mm and less....but colored acrylic is in 3mm for the less thick.

 

So anybody knows the thickness of the original lenses and if it was really acrylic? (sorry Jez, it's not against what you wrote )

 

TBH When I said acrylic I'm going on what Ainsworth said for the ANH lenses (which were grey). I asked him once how he made them and he said that he heated them up and then "hand blew" them over a cutout of the shape he needed. Note that it was a cutout so the part you look through never touched anything so would be more transparent.

 

He once told me the exact brand that came from Germany - and that it was no longer available I hope I didnt get the acrylic part wrong!

 

Paul - thanks for that, and for continually pushing. You were right to. I dont know if John will find anything else out since we did go though all his books at length. We need a new source now, like someone who worked in the Art Dept at Elstree in 1979.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Verne]

Thanks Jez.

 

And do you know what AA use actually for his helmets lenses???

 

I observed the bubble lenses of the Hero helmet of a friend and it seems that it's not the same material as the green acrylic that I bought! It looks less thick (maybe 2mm)

[NAZGÛL]

Great read especially the Mollo part!

 

Im still wondering if we arent seing things that maybe arent there, but some things are strange and this is very interesting to follow.

 

 

Cheers

[wannab]

I have a question about the bubbles lenses of the ROTJ helmets (and same question for Hero and TIE pilot helmets).

 

According to Jez website, the lenses were made out of green acrylic. But I'm really curious to know how it's possible to vacuum form acrylic sheet

 

The less thick green acrylic that I was able to find (for my ROTJ helmet) was 3mm of thickness. And it's impossible to vacuum form, it's too thick. It's possible to heat and deform, but it's not also easy as with plastic like ABS or HIPS.

I never found less thick acrylic. Clear acrylic can be find in 2mm and less....but colored acrylic is in 3mm for the less thick.

 

So anybody knows the thickness of the original lenses and if it was really acrylic? (sorry Jez, it's not against what you wrote )

 

 

At a sign company I worked at years ago they formed acrylic all the time, making pan faces 3d letters etc. It's just the machine used -- this one was big able to accept 12 foot long sheets. It comes down to proper (and even) heating and larger holes (16th to 1/8th dia) in the moulds to draw things in tight to corners etc. I think the max (if I remember right) was 3/16" sheets -- typical was 1/8th". So it is possible.

 

I would imagine they used something in the 1/16th inch or thinner range for the trooper eyes -- again it comes down to tracking the proper color/shade plastic and finding the manufacturer, then just see what thickness' are/were available. Too bad we don't have access to the LFL and related contractors invoice files!

 

 

Doug

[wannab]

As a side issue I just checked an inflation calculator and the sheets of ABS cost £16.50 each in 1979 which equates to £68 ($105) in todays money.

 

Now assuming ABS has increased in price at roughly the same rate as inflation, in which case that suggests to me that they were pretty big sheets. How big a sheet of ABS would $100 buy now?

 

Note that John Mollo said to me that the vac presses at Elstree were typically used for sets so I think they would have been fairly large.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

 

Depending on the supply house it could cost that much for a 4'x8' sheet but likely less -- in the ball park as they say. Regular styrene is much less, but ABS is more of a premium grade styrene.

 

 

Doug