How many helmet styles?

[Verne]

Wow, David, what a nice photo!!!

 

This helmet looks like a ANH helmet (very sharp). According to me (but need more photos) it looks like a Hero helmet which was repainted (especially the teeth area)

[troopermaster]

That's a strange looking trooper David, but it is original and looks to be ANH except for the odd paint job.

 

I haven't seen this trooper before and I am looking forward to seeing more of the photos of it

[mods1965]

Sorry to say this is the only one I have so far! I took more of the scout trooper on his speeder bike, which as you can imagine was more interesting at the time. I know I took another shoot of him from the front on, so I will dig around the loft some more to find it!

The mouth is odd, as it is black edged with grey teeth. It seems like someone thought it would be interesting to cross the mouth styles from ANH and ESB.

The eyes are green and i think are bubble. I will look into geting a high quality scan and with some cleaning up, more detail may become clear.

 

Any one else out there remember this exhibit?

 

It was an amazing collection; Vader, two royal guards, C3PO and R2D2, Jedi Luke, Rebel Leia, Sail barge guards, Han in Carbonite, Mon Cal etc. They ran the trailer on a loop on a TV and had lots of McQuarie production artwork (prints) on display.

[Verne]

I would love to see the pictures of the biker scout

[Star Wars Helmets]

I've spent the day with a number of original helmets, including an ANH and RotJ Stormtrooper - and have looked at this again. However IMO (and it really is only an opinion) - but what we're seeing is just the same reconditioned ANH helmets.

 

We know for a fact that 2 Hero's survived ANH (for the Holiday SPecial) so its possible that one lost its lenses so could be viewed a Stunt/Hero hybrid - i.e. an ABS "stunt" style helmet IF they replaced the lenses (again remember the one currently in the archive has no lenses - not sosafe-keeping from Lucasfilm I'm sad to say).

 

But when I look at these two - I see ANH helmets, not RotJ

 

 

 

As far as the one on the right- see more ANH bump under its eye than RotJ...

 

...and IMO this photo was taken 1983 for the RotJ Star Wars exibition (I forget whether it was Harrods or Selfridges but I went to both the ESB and RotJ exibitions)

The troopers in the Getty photo are not the same as this. The Getty one was 1980, this is 1983 and the troopers are different.

 

I'm certainly not closing my mind off to the possibility, but at the moment I just dont see it. But like I said, just an opinion

 

Mods1965 - Yes I was there although (stupidly) did not take a camera so thanks for posting your pic. I remember it well since they had the (at that point) unseen trailer for RotJ on continual loop - I must have watched it 30 times! I remember the Biker/Speeder and the IRG's I forget whether it was at Selfridges or Harrods and seem to remember one of the exibitions (ESB and RotJ) being at one store and the other at the other. But being a Star Wars nut all those years ago I went to both.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[littledragon88[TK]]

Thanks for sharing all those exciting pictures! I wasn't even born when these were taken

[Verne]

HDPE posted this insteresting pictures of a Hero ESB stormtrooper on PorpDen

 

 

One thing that is strange on the first pictures, according to me, is how the tube is pinched. We can see this detail on some ROTJ helmets and of course the ANH made out of HDPE (with the flexibility of this plastic). But I never noticed it on Hero helmets

[Star Wars Helmets]

HDPE posted this insteresting pictures of a Hero ESB stormtrooper on PorpDen

 

 

One thing that is strange on the first pictures, according to me, is how the tube is pinched. We can see this detail on some ROTJ helmets and of course the ANH made out of HDPE (with the flexibility of this plastic). But I never noticed it on Hero helmets

 

I'm wondering if that could be one of the two Hero's that survived ANH (and unfortunately the Holiday Special) - they either purposely switched the lenses to match the others or they fell out (as happened to the one remaining Hero in the LFL archive)

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[AJCG]

I'm wondering if that could be one of the two Hero's that survived ANH (and unfortunately the Holiday Special) - they either purposely switched the lenses to match the others or they fell out (as happened to the one remaining Hero in the LFL archive)

 

Cheers

 

Jez

 

Is my computer or the pictures is missing? I can not see it

 

Cheers

 

A

[Star Wars Helmets]

The pics loading fine for me - so should be okay.

 

To go back to the original post question "How many RotJ Stormtrooper Helmet types are there", I've been looking into this and would personally say there are TWO.

 

However I think both helmet types look structurally the same, with the key differences being detailing. Now to be clear I've never had the two versions side by side to do a thorough comparison although it is something I'm going to try and set up. Ive heard it said that 2 different stocks of ABS were used in different colours but have not seen this myself. The yellowing of certain helmets is more pronounced than others but what we dont know is how those helmets have been exposed to light and thus have yellowed more (or less). Certainly even the most yellowed helmets Ive seen have been almost white in obscured places like under the brow trim so UV yellowing has certainly played a part. Like I said I'd like the get the 2 versions side by side as still have a sneaking suspicion that the internal textures may be slightly different.

 

The most common are the Rounded Frown versions. Now having handled over half a dozen of these I can say that they all have the same RotJ Decals, Aluminium Mic Tips and construction Hard Hat liners. You can see these right through the movie from the Elstree Sets to the California Forest scenes.

 

 

The second type are the Squared Frown versions, and have been finished differently. These have ESB decals, Resin Hovi Mix mic tips and foam lining. There are certainly less of these although I have personally handled two over recent years. Interestingly, all three I know of were sourced from the UK

 

 

I'm working on my RotJ section at the moment and have shots from an new photoshoot I want to add soon (waiting for owners permission). 'm also going to do another video, this one detailing the RotJ helmet and how it varies from the ANH/ESB version - using some new footage taken last week - here's a screengrab

 

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[FON]

Truely brilliant Jez

[Verne]

Great news jez.

 

I would be very curious to see more photos of the helmets with squared frown that we know (the two first helmets I showed)

 

Because they appears different to me (but it's probably because of the lighting, angle, etc...)

[troopermaster]

The second type are the Squared Frown versions, and have been finished differently. These have ESB decals, Resin Hovi Mix mic tips and foam lining. There are certainly less of these although I have personally handled two over recent years. Interestingly, all three I know of were sourced from the UK.

 

Like the ones used in ESB.

 

I find it too much of a coincedence that these helmets have all the same details as an ANH/ESB except made from ABS where the other Rounded Frowns not only look different, but have new decals and assembled differently. This tells me that new helmets were made specifically for ROTJ and they may have used one of these ESB ABS helmets to copy, and maybe the new armour too.

 

I'm sticking to my guns with this, just as I have for the past few years. It's quite obvious that ROTJ style armour and helmets were around in 1980, well before ROTJ was filmed. My guess is that they did use these new ESB suits to make the new ROTJ armour. I can tell that new right arm pieces were made for ROTJ as they differ greatly from ANH. All the troopers from ESB era (with ROTJ style armour) have doubled up left arms which further strenghtens my theory.

 

Anyway, looking forward to seeing the new section on your site Jez and I love the new layout

[Verne]

And it's really curious to see the ROTJ helmet exposed at Comic Con.

 

Looks like the second style (with machined mic) but with ANH/ESB ears.

 

So we certainly have two helmet styles (shape) but mixed, assembled differently. It's maybe why I see four helmet styles (but clearly made with two differents shapes) I know, I'm not really clear.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Thanks for the kind comments guys - much appreciated.

 

Paul - let me tell you that if you are proven to be right about this I'll be very happy to give you a great big (metaphorical) pat on the back mate. I certainly think you have opened up a very interesting debate, however from my personal point of view I just don't see RotJ-style trooper helmets in ESB and think the b/w Vader and trooper pic with the London Bus was taken 1983. But its just my opinion. Like I said before though I dont really have an opinion on the armor.

 

However I'd love to be proven wrong on the helmet front as it would show that something went on that we previously werent aware of and that the sort of thing that makes this hobby fun.

 

For those who think the square frown troopers look different from the round nosed, I've put this together which shows that (to some extent) they ALL can look different depending on assembly and the way they are photographed. The centre three are square-frowns, whereas all the others are round frowns

 

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[AJCG]

Thanks for the kind comments guys - much appreciated.

 

Paul - let me tell you that if you are proven to be right about this I'll be very happy to give you a great big (metaphorical) pat on the back mate. I certainly think you have opened up a very interesting debate, however from my personal point of view I just don't see RotJ-style trooper helmets in ESB and think the b/w Vader and trooper pic with the London Bus was taken 1983. But its just my opinion. Like I said before though I dont really have an opinion on the armor.

 

However I'd love to be proven wrong on the helmet front as it would show that something went on that we previously werent aware of and that the sort of thing that makes this hobby fun.

 

For those who think the square frown troopers look different from the round nosed, I've put this together which shows that (to some extent) they ALL can look different depending on assembly and the way they are photographed. The centre three are square-frowns, whereas all the others are round frowns

 

 

Cheers

 

Jez

 

These is very cool Jez, very nice display so people can appreciate the ROTJ variations. It very true what you said about "both helmet types look structurally the same, with the key differences being detailing" I will go a little further with this and I will like to point that some Hero Helmets are identical in their structure to the backgrounds helmets, it is just a matter of detailing. To be more specific the center helmet(background) in your picture and the helmet on the lower right. Both have the same kind of ears(ANH/ESB) as well and same structure despite the last pic is distorted but the detailing is completely different(frown, vocorder, bubble lenses...)

Actually Mike TK4510 took recently pics of the Hero I mentioned about. http://forum.whitearmor.net/index.php?show...=5787&st=60

As many of you know I have been detailing two ROTJ helmets, a Background helmet and a Hero one. Both are identical from the same mold but the assembling and and the detail make the difference and they look two different animals. I can take pics of both of them if you wish and posted here.

I hope I did not make this thing more confusing

One more thing, regarding the ROTJ helmets on ESB I'm agree is a very interested debate but I see things more from Jez's perspective.

 

Cheers

 

A

[troopermaster]

Nice comparison.

 

I see four ANH/ESB style helmets in there (one rounded), the rest are squashed ROTJ . What I cannot figure out is why are there two types of helmet made for one film? It just doesn't make any sense to me. Don't you find that odd?

 

Now, if like I suspect they had planned to make all new trooper costumes for ESB but for whatever reason got behind and couldn't meet the deadline, they had to reuse the old ANH kits. After filmed began, new costumes were finished and only a couple made it on screen then these moulds were reused or fettled to make the costumes for ROTJ.

 

We know for a fact that a new costume was photograhed with Vader in 1980, there's no denying that. You say you have no opinion on that armour and that's fine. I see 100% ROTJ armour and helmet, and can spot the difference between ANH and ROTJ a mile away.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Well I'd like to think that I could also spot the dfference between an ANH/ESB and a RotJ too

 

I also dont think there were 2 different "types" of helmets with regard to their production. I think there was ONE RotJ mould and they were all vac-formed off that. The difference is in the assembly and detailing (which is always the case). I think its possible that the vac-forms were assembled in 2 places (US and UK) and maybe even some vac-forming was done at different times - eg MAYBE they produced the new mould in 1981 for tour work and then used it fr the manufacvture of the new helmets in 1982. Maybe.

 

I'm wary of the term "Hero" for RotJ helmets as I dont thik there were Hero's. I think the vast majority of the helmets were the round forwn versions, and within that group theyre all the same. I dont believe the made any to be specifically "Close up" or "Hero" versions.

 

However to be clear on these photos, IMO...

 

This was from 1980 but theyre ANH/ESB Helmets. It was a publicity photo to promote the ESB exhibition (Selfridges ?)

 

This was from 1983 and are RotJ helmets. It was a publicity photo to promote the ESB exhibition (Harrods?). I went to both exhibitions.

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[troopermaster]

I don't know if there is any proof that the second photo you posted was taken in 1983 or not, but the two troopers look to be the same as the one taken in 1980. One even has a grey frown and the other black, same in both photos and they are all in the same positions too. This is no guarantee that they were taken at the same time I know, though the troopers do look to be the same to me. It's a shame they are not better quality so we can scrutinise them more. Seeing how the helmets are the main factor here, the last photo is over exposed and washing out most of the details on the trooper helmets for me to be able to tell if they are ESB style or ROTJ (I would hazzard a guess at ESB personally )

[89Batman[TK]]

I find it hard to believe that those pictures weren't taken at the same time or within hours of eachother in my opinion, I suspect Paul's suspicion that they are from 1980 to promote ESB the more likely of the suggestions. If they were taken years apart it would seem that they are still the same suits and yet there seem to be no obvious wear on them in the time between shots- Is it also of any significance that the holsters are all left handed as in ANH albeit with loops? Also I was interested in how far out the O2/TD is sticking out from the back of the belt- is this down to being badly placed or were they all not as flush with the belt as that? Loving this debate btw.

[Veedox]

To me, it is clear BOTH of these pics are from the same photo shoot, at the same time. The trooper with the jacked up calves over the boots in both pics is proof enough for me. Especially the same hiked up left calf. Really, I doubt that would happen twice exactly like that.

 

Also, the hiked up calves trooper is on Vader's right in both pics.

 

Also, also, the left shoulder bell on the trooper closet to the camera is hiked up too and is exactly the same in both pics.

 

Too many similarities to be taken 3 years apart.

 

What is not clear is the date these were taken. 1980 or 1983? GettyImages could have it wrong... Just saying.

[troopermaster]

What is not clear is the date these were taken. 1980 or 1983? GettyImages could have it wrong... Just saying.

 

It's possibe the date could be wrong but, there is no denying the date was 1980 when the red-backed photo was taken with Vader and the two troopers, one of which is ROTJ. We know for a fact that photo was part of the Topps trading cards back in 1980, proving that ROTJ style armour was around the time of ESB.

[Veedox]

So, then, who says the pics were from 1983? Only Jez?

 

Maybe Getty does have it right and Jez's date is wrong?

 

The red promo photo does seem to be a smoking gun type evidence.

 

You know what might shed some light on this matter is the 'Making of ESB' book coming out next Spring. That is, if it's thorough enough.

 

 

 

It's possibe the date could be wrong but, there is no denying the date was 1980 when the red-backed photo was taken with Vader and the two troopers, one of which is ROTJ. We know for a fact that photo was part of the Topps trading cards back in 1980, proving that ROTJ style armour was around the time of ESB.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Good spot on those similarities Veedox - having them pointed out to me does suggest that both photographs were taken on the same day.

 

I also dont think that Getty images would have got the date wrong - that kind of stuff is their livelihood so it does suggest 1980 and a very difficult question that I cant currently find an answer to

 

To me the red-backing promo photo is just one of the ANH/Holiday Special Hero's but can understand why others don't agree.

 

I think I know who has the answer (part of the production team) but it's not the easiest to get the information from him.

 

Can I also say that I'm really enjoying this thread!

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Veedox]

Thanks Jez!

 

What I see in the red backed promo photo:

 

The trooper on Vader's right is clearly an ESB trooper, just a refurbished ANH suit with the new handguards, new helmet details and black mouth.

 

The trooper on Vader's left has a squashed look helmet, 4-5 holes in the mouth, very, very bubbled eye lenses which says ROTJ to me.

Also, you can barely see the edge of his shoulder bell, which looks rounded on the lower/inner edge, again that's a ROTJ feature, right? (I'm not sure)

 

I can barely make out edging strip on the chest piece side, the ab details are upside down, the handguards have no stitching lines... These are ROTJ tells.

 

All in all, if this pic is from 1980 or earlier, it's weird!

 

Jez, what you call Holiday Special HERO, what do you mean by Hero? As in ANH Type Hero helmet - wider, three holes in smaller mouth, low brow or something else?

 

 

 

 

Good spot on those similarities Veedox - having them pointed out to me does suggest that both photographs were taken on the same day.

 

I also dont think that Getty images would have got the date wrong - that kind of stuff is their livelihood so it does suggest 1980 and a very difficult question that I cant currently find an answer to

 

To me the red-backing promo photo is just one of the ANH/Holiday Special Hero's but can understand why others don't agree.

 

I think I know who has the answer (part of the production team) but it's not the easiest to get the information from him.

 

Can I also say that I'm really enjoying this thread!

 

Cheers

 

Jez