How many helmet styles?

[Verne]

Ok guys, I know there is no many people who like the ROTJ helmet.

 

So for the fan, I need your help.

 

I watched my photos library of ROTJ helmet (in order to know how I will assemble my TE ROTJ).

 

And after many hours of comparison, it appears there is 4 styles of helmets in ROTJ. JoeR advanced 3 styles, so I'm really not sure.

 

Here's the first style:

 

 

It looks very close to an ANH helmet but made out of ABS (I always thought that LFL recasted a Hero helmet, but it's my opinion)

The eyes areas looks to be thinner and sharper than the other styles

 

Second style:

 

 

Close to the first style (ANH ears, mic tips, etc...) but with a different face plate (the ROTJ face plate with the area under the left eye which seems to be thicker and less sharp vocoder)

 

Third style:

 

 

The helmet from the Comic Con. ROTJ faceplate, ANH ears, new mic tips (machined) and what appear to be a new cap and back (it looks rounder on the top)

 

Fourth style:

 

 

The best representative of the "wonky look". Machined tips, ROTJ face plate, ugly ears (especially the left ear). I can't say for the cap and back but according to me there is different shape (and not because of the assembly or the cut)

 

I also can't say which have ESB decals and which have new decals.

 

Now I need to know what you think because it's really possible that I make a mistake.

[JoeR]

I think the first three are from the same mould. Just the lighting and distances the shots were taken from differ.

 

So two moulds. Troopermaster agrees on the two mould theory.

 

The finishing is just different. The third helmet is from the second, wonky style mould. On the wonky style mould the ears are new sculpts, whereas on the first three shots they are recast ANH/ESB ears.

 

Joe

 

Ps: Here is a shot of the first helmet un-assembled that I haven't posted before, if anyone can do a similar shot of an un-assembled ANH helmet you can see the similarities:

 

[troopermaster]

I believe that there were two moulds for the Jedi helmets. The reason for this is that there is one version that is squashed with new sculpted ear caps and the other is more like a regular ANH helmet excelpt made from ABS.

 

Now you may not know this but, the ROTJ helmets and armour are actually in ESB and were probably stunt suits. A few of these suits were used for the ESB promotion in 1980, three years before ROTJ was made, so this proves that they existed before filming episode VI. My guess is that they used these same suits from ESB and also made new ones specifically for ROTJ, resulting in the slight difference in appearance.

[troopermaster]

Just to confirm what I was saying, here is a screen grab from the ESB freezing chamber. You can see the armour is not the same as the rest of the ESB troopers which were refurbished ANH suits.

You can clearly see the rubber edging trim on the chest, the ribbed shoulder straps velcro'd in place and the rounder corner of the shoulder bell which has the elastic placed higher up so it doesn't show on the biceps. The helmet also looks to be made from ABS and it is virtually identicle to JB's ROTJ helmet. The frown is long and narrow, and it is painted past the teeth unlike the HDPE helmets which just had individual teeth painted black. It's hard to tell from the image, but it looks as though there are no ear cap screws either.

 

In the next two screen grabs, you can see the arms overlap on the joins instead of a cover strip. The main thing that distinguishes the ROTJ arms is that they have a return edge at the wrist where none of the ANH had this. Also, the right forearm was cut short when it was cast, so it has 10.5 divots along the strip instead of 11 which you can see here. The hand plates are not sewn to the gloves either and most likely strapped to the forearms.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Thats a very interesting theory Paul over the ESB helmets and Armor.

 

Concentrating on the helmet side, I have to say that having spent the last half hour looking over that scene in hi-def I'm still not convinced that the helmet youre referring to is a "RotJ". However it does have a softer look to it and admittedly its hard to see screw holes - although these could be put down to a soft pull with replacement ears that could be new.

 

Is there any other evidence that there were RotJ-style troopers in ESB? I think I recall a shot of Vader and 2 troopers outside Harrods but throught that was 1983, not 1980.

 

I actually went to the Premiere of ESB in 1980 and recall a few troopers turning up (with Chewy, 3PO and Vader) but have not seen any photos of this since so dont know what they were.

 

Like I said, interesting but I think we need more evidence

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Verne]

Thanks guys!

 

Well see Paul I never noticed this helmet in ESB but you're right, it looks close to the first style of ROTJ helmet!

[troopermaster]

Jez,

 

I got this one from Getty and I am pretty sure it was dated 1980.

There is another one somewhere with a bus in the background which is clearer that is from the same shoot. Both of the troopers match JB's suit except one has grey teeth. I actually think the one to Vaders right is JB's.

*EDIT* Found the pic

 

Here's another poster from ESB era.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Hi Paul

 

The top one looks like standard ANH/ESB helmets. Its hard to tell given the resolution

 

The 2nd one down (with the Bus) was taken outside Selfridges on Oxford Street. That was where there was an exibition to tie into Return of the Jedi in March-April 1983. I went along to it and remember it was the first time the new trailer was on show.

 

The 3rd photo (colour). I remember we discussed this on the RPF some time ago and I thought the consensus of opinion was that it was an ANH Hero (hence the grey frown) . In fact it could be the same Hero thats still in the LFL Archive. I wonder if it was just an odd angle?

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[troopermaster]

That's not an ANH hero helmet, definately not. That's an ROTJ as we know it, but I honestly believe that is was made before ROTJ. Everything about that armour and helmet is ROTJ except for the grey frown.

 

One thing I have noticed too is that all the ROTJ style armour from the photos I have posted (including the screen grabs) all look to have right forearms on both arms. Now, if there was a handful of stunt suits made for ESB, then it's possible they only made bucks of one arm. When ROTJ comes along, they use the same moulds (or make new ones from these stunt suits) and make sided arms since the ROTJ forearm is considerably different from an ANH while the right is almost identicle, albeit shorter. It's possible they used one bicep (left) and sculpted a right from this, keeping the thimbprint detail.

 

One thing is for sure, the screen grabs show a different armour from the regular ANH and ESB sets. The shoulder straps have the velcro visable (ANH straps were glued). The edging trim on the chest (ANH had none). No sewing on the hand plates (Just like ROTJ).

 

Could it be possible that the stunt suits made for ESB were reused in ROTJ? We know there is an ESB helmet on the Ewoks drum kit!

[troopermaster]

I just checked on Getty Images and the date for the photo is 31st March 1980.

Getty Images

[Star Wars Helmets]

That's not an ANH hero helmet, definitely not. That's an ROTJ as we know it, but I honestly believe that is was made before ROTJ. Everything about that armour and helmet is ROTJ except for the grey frown.

 

Do you mean the one in your screen-grab at the top or the photo above with Vader? If the one above then I can see why you think it looks RotJ as it does look odd - although like I said the grey frown also suggests ANH. DO we know when that photo was first used - could be from 1982 or was it definitely 1980?

 

One thing I have noticed too is that all the ROTJ style armour from the photos I have posted (including the screen grabs) all look to have right forearms on both arms. Now, if there was a handful of stunt suits made for ESB, then it's possible they only made bucks of one arm. When ROTJ comes along, they use the same moulds (or make new ones from these stunt suits) and make sided arms since the ROTJ forearm is considerably different from an ANH while the right is almost identicle, albeit shorter. It's possible they used one bicep (left) and sculpted a right from this, keeping the thimbprint detail.

TBH I dunno. Everything I've encountered thus far suggests that they DIDN'T make any more trooper stuff and just reused what the had (hence the ridiculously small number of Stormtroopers in ESB) and most of the reasons for this were due to the strict budget in place. If they had gone to the expense of casting an entire stormtooper then why stop at just one - why not make another dozen as they were always short on numbers? I also have it on good authority that they paid a 3rd party to "recondition" the ANH stormtrooper helmets instead of making new ones - again to keep costs down.

 

One thing is for sure, the screen grabs show a different armour from the regular ANH and ESB sets. The shoulder straps have the velcro visable (ANH straps were glued). The edging trim on the chest (ANH had none). No sewing on the hand plates (Just like ROTJ).

 

But couldn't this just be a change in strapping/assembly. Mollo's team were great at doing this- the problem with the movie was there wasn't great vac-forming abilities which is why the ended up re-using everything they had (stormtrooprs, TIE's became AT-AT's etc.) Only the Snowtroopers were "new" and the vac-forming there was extremely elementary compared to the ANH stuff.

 

 

 

Could it be possible that the stunt suits made for ESB were reused in ROTJ? We know there is an ESB helmet on the Ewoks drum kit!

 

Yes it is absolutely is possible. Though I'd be more inclined to believe the armour than the helmets (which I don't think happened). ANH and ESB stuff appeared in RotJ - no problem. The issue would be for "RotJ" stuff to be in ANH or ESB.

 

Interesting thread!

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[Star Wars Helmets]

I just checked on Getty Images and the date for the photo is 31st March 1980.

Getty Images

 

I'm sure that Getty shot is 1980 - its the 2nd one that I think was 1983.

 

However in that 1980 shot they just look like ANH/ESB troopers to me. Any chance we can get a better resolution copy?

 

I'm out for the evening now but will check back tomorrow - like I said, very interesting discussion

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[troopermaster]

I know it's not a very large image, but they are definately not ANH or ESB troopers. The ab plates have the upside down buttons and the shins are tucked into the boots on one of the troopers, just like in the other photo that you think is 1983. I think they were taken at the same time and are in fact the same troopers and Vader. The helmets look the same too, one with a black frown and the other is grey. Too much of a coincidence I think.

[firebladejedi[TK]]

Ok does this mean that a rotj helmet with anh / esb armour would be accurate? Or does it have to be rotj helmet with rotj armour?

[synaptyx]

I'm a total n00b compared to you both Paul and Jez and that grey frowned bucket iin the color photo just screams ROTJ to me. I doubt the angle could produce that ROTJ effect, just try it with your own buckets!

[troopermaster]

Mark,

 

You would want both ROTJ helmets and armour to be screen accurate.

 

What I am trying to get at here is that there are at least two different sets of armour in ESB that are the same as ROTJ. The two screen grabs I posted showing Chewie getting cuffed, both troopers arms are ROTJ and not ANH/ESB. They both have the return edge at the wrist, moulded joining strips and no stitching to the hand plates, all features of ROTJ.

 

Now, I am willing to hazzard a guess that as I am convinced about the two ROTJ armours in ESB, these are probably the same suits as the ones in the promo photos with Vader in the streets of London. I don't know why or if they made more of these suits for ESB, I just know they made at least two before they made new ROTJ suits, otherwise they would not be on screen or in a photo dated 1980.

 

Aaron,

 

I agree mate. Look past the grey paint and deeper into the shapes. Everything about the whole costume in the red background photo just screams ROTJ to me too, especially when comparing it to the real ESB trooper next to Vader.

[Star Wars Helmets]

Armor-wise, like I said before I dunno. TBH I dont really have an opinion on that. I think its more believable than the helmet. Although like I said a huge amount of effort for only a couple os sets but maybe thats what they needed to do

 

Also like I said before, that red-backed colour photo does seem to show a RotJ style helmet. But have we categorically got a date for it - are we sure its 1980 and not 1983?

 

I'm ging to see if I can track down a better copy of that 1980 Getty photo. Maybe you guys eyes are better than mine but its just too hazy for me. Let me see what I can dig up.....

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[troopermaster]

Here's a thought.....

 

What if they originally planned to make all new trooper suits for ESB since the old ANH's were in such bad conditon, they were not ready in time when filming started and they had to use the damaged ANH? That would explain why they used what they had at hand and why only a couple of the new kits were used on screen.

 

Going back to the photo from Getty, there is no doubt in my mind that they are the same as ROTJ troopers. Forget the grey paint on the frown, that's just cosmetic. Just the shapes of the helmets is a give away, even if it isn't the best quality image. The troopers both look just like JB's ROTJ, the helmets are virtually identicle in shape.

 

I think if you can find a better quality photo it will confirm what I am saying.

 

The red backed photo....is that an ESB or ROTJ Vader? I haven't got the foggiest about Vader, so maybe if we can identify Vader it will help us get some kind of date for the photo.

[Star Wars Helmets]

good idea asking the Vader experts - i was thinking the exact thing myself.....

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[TK-2126_MD[TK]]

LOL i luv it when u guys "go at it"

reminds me of my Professers taking about medical syndromes or case files. 99% of the ppl hearing would nood there heads but not really know what was beeing adressed!!!!!

I think i will do what i did then "TAKE NOTES" and look for the subjects being adressed else were!!!!!!!

Thanks guys for the blast to the past!

[SuperTrooper]

The red backed photo is an ESB Vader.

[tkrestonva[TK]]

 

Veering off course just a bit . . .

 

I just noticed that the cuffs on Chewie look a lot less like the gold-colored cuffs so clearly seen in ANH, and a lot more like the TK-stylized cuffs that you occasionally see at troops, and for which there are a couple of how-to-build threads on this board. Could it be that the TK cuffs you see at cons and such are actually screen-accurate, albeit ESB instead of ANH accurate?

 

Back to the original topic . . .

 

Watching Paul and Jez discuss the fine details that even most people here wouldn't pick up on is like watching a couple of university professors debate the details and significance of a rare archaeology find. Utterly fascinating, although I feel like I'm barely hanging on.

 

Keep it going, guys.

[Murray1134[501st]]

A thought occured to me about that one trooper in the carbon freezing chamber shot. Could it be a shot that was filmed much later in the production, possibly after the principal photography had wrapped? They could have already started gearing up for ROTJ.

[Verne]

I agree with Paul about the helmet. It look like a ROTJ helmet and not the Hero ANH.

 

The tube is rounder on this one. The Hero ANH have a more pinched tube and narrow.

 

But the frown painted in grey is really strange.

[mods1965]

I remember the big Jedi costume display in May 83 at Harrods I was there when Peter Mayhew did an autograph session.

I found some old photos in loft at the weekend and took a rather poor scan of the stormtrooper that was on display. Sorry for the quality of the scan. I will find a better quality one to show more of the detail of the armour.

Not a Jedi TK, looks like a mix of bits and bobs they had left over from the previous films.