skygunbro Posted July 12, 2009 Report Posted July 12, 2009 Paul i respect you and you and I have never had any issues but I gotta say this is well"indeed, silly". First off I dont care how much money someone spent on acquiring screen used pieces or molds just like my stuff I scratch build I do not own the legal rights to it,and have been told even though I knew this already im no more protected from LFL than the guys who mold acquired pieces..i get that... But any TK stuff that was molded off screen used stuff is recasted....irregardless of how much money was paid for it.BY this definition anyone who feels they paid alot for something whether it be 10,000.00 or 100.00 can use this as an excuse to copy or claim ownership or "rights" to it....I call BS. IM not condoning this davethedane guys actions at all but am wondering why its not ok that a non 501st member recasted a 501st members item? The 501st continues to tip toe around this issue when prop makers complain about 501st members recasting their stuff and nothing is done, but if its the other way around they are willing to act..thats just plain wrong and a double standard. If these decisions can be made like you did then why arent they by others when its the other way around? OK so Im understanding this now 50st can recast non 501st members item no punishement......non 501st member recasts 501st members item and receives punishment..therefore 501st member is protected but non 501st member isnt..ok gotcha I say the decision to ban this guy is a good one if he is recasting a prop makers stuff ..would be more legit to me if the prop maker actually created his item versus buying it but whatever...but if you really think about it you would have to ban anyone and everyone who makes TK armor without the permission of LFL.I dont care how much TE or TE2 paid for it blah blah blah it doesnt justify or give anyone ownership or rights to it..you guys always tell us scratch build guys we have no rights to our sculpts because they are based off LFL IP well i feel I have more ownership...not rights mind you in a scratch built piece than just going and buying something. You guys always play the IP card when prop maker whine and cry about their items being recasted so now Im playing it.Again unless these guys have a permission slip signed by GL giving them "rights" to mold the armor then they shouldnt be anymore protected than i am.......
Daetrin[Admin] Posted July 12, 2009 Report Posted July 12, 2009 Hey Jason, You know I totally respect you and your art, and what you contribute to this community. Actually I don't see it that 501st should be able to recast non-501st w/o punishment, but there was recently added language to the charter that makes this the case, e.g. a DL cannot ban a 501st member for recasting w/o first complaining to that persons' GCO and going through the COG, plus some other hand tying that's been added. So while if Terrell had recasted Tony I'd have wanted to do the same thing, I'd have to go through some paperwork to make that attempt with no guarantee that I'd be successful. With regards to non-501st it's definitely a judgment call for the DL just like it is for a GCO on their garrison boards. Some garrisons are very open about recasting and the CO's actively support and encourage it. Others are very adamant against it and hunt it down. Detachments are no different, and like much of the charter there is room for interpretation. My concern is in protecting the prop makers without whom very few of us would be able to participate in this hobby. LFL allows us - and by us I mean 501st members - a limited ability to produce armor for our own use. This protection does not apply to non-501st people. This along with the charter specifically stating that we don't condone recasting means that I can protect the rights of 501st prop maker. I like some other DL's also choose to extend this blanket to other prop makers like TM, but this is not required by me at all. I don't consider it my job to hunt down and prosecute recasters, and those of you who know who is on this board and what they do can clearly see that I could be very aggressive in weeding members should I choose to. What makes Dave stand out is that he, as a 501st member, knew the rules, was blatant about violating the rules, and was completely unapologetic as well. He specifically targeted a 501st member for his work. This wasn't someone trying to fly under the radar or make a few copies for his garrison buddies. This wasn't a case of recasting CAP who could care less. The more I examine the situation the more convinced I am I did the right thing, and for the right reasons. Paul
TK-4510[501st] Posted July 12, 2009 Report Posted July 12, 2009 Recasting CAP is recasting TE and TE2 is it not? The molds are ALL the same they are NO different.
Jangojedi Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Jason, I here you on the member vs non-member issue. Maybe it should be stated in the charter that anyone who is on the 501st Forums, regardless of membership status - ACTION will be taken. Because the non-members make up the community as well as the members. Especially if they are supplying the 501st with original buckets, never before made. ie the clone stuff. Or Jason's MQ Stormtrooper. If someone recasted it, that member or non-member should be BANNED and Publicly displayed as a RECASTER. Paul, I definitely think you are taking steps in the right direction. I agree with the BAN, good job. As far the IP thing, Jason hit on the head, unless LFL allows or gives you permission to recast or sell his stuff, you don't own it. The question isn't about IP, unless someone here said " no one can build the stormtrooper anymore" only FX or TE2 can build it, then the IP card should be played. You don't own it, so I can build what I want. Now with that said, buying someone's armor TE2 or FX, and then copying it and reselling it is recasting. Member or NON-member, you are stealing if you recast it. If you want to be a sell TK armor, start a build thread, show your progress, and document your build for all to see, step by step, then offer your FANMADE TK. To say anything different, that no one owns the rights so I can recast anything I want, go ahead and make a list of which armor/helmets you want to recast publicly so people can decide if they want to sell to you or not. I mean be a MAN about it andout yourself. At least give the prop builder the common courtesy to let him know that you will recast his stuff. BTW, no one owns the IP rights, that has never been the issue - the issue is TRUST, how can you have a community of people if you can not TRUST them, if a propbuilder does not TRUST a potential buyer, then no transaction. Vice versa, if I do not TRUST a propmaker, I will not order from him, especially he has ran off with money or sent out really bad recast. I have never heard a propmaker say, I own the rights, you can not build another stormtrooper. I have heard propmakers get really pissed off that people recasted his fanmade bucket. Then the community should be pissed as well, they stole that guys hard work, time and efforts. By not standing by that man's side (member or non-memeber); it is a total slap in the face of the propbuilder. Why in the hell-o would he ever want to build another awesome helmet to be recasted and told don't complain about it. Once again, the wording on the charter may need to change to any person on the 501st forums will be served the same consquences. NON-members - Banned, Memebers Banned, Membership to the 501st REVOKED. Food for thought.
Jangojedi Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Recasting CAP is recasting TE and TE2 is it not? The molds are ALL the same they are NO different. No ill will here, I don't know where you stand on the issue. Please do not take it the wrong way. Regardless of your stance, I always ask myself. But does it make it right to recast it? A more direct question would be, are you ok with recasting their stuff? And then reselling it to the members here? Where is the honor in that? I personally would not want to hurt the person who was recasted in the first place, and it probably move me to buy from that person directly to show support. We VOTE with our dollars, who do you support? I mean if someone on a 501st board offered a RUN of a certain item, then took all the payments and ran off with it, then does it make it ok for me to do the same, NO. Obviously not. Rmember this is not directed at you personally at all. I would rather build a community through long term TRUST with Honor and Respect.
Runnriottt Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Bottom line as I see it. No one will ever be happy. It will never be good enough. And to those guys... Pack up your toys and go home. Paul took a step and still.. You all complain. Petty.... redundant... baseless... argument.
Jangojedi Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Bottom line as I see it. No one will ever be happy. It will never be good enough. And to those guys... Pack up your toys and go home. Paul took a step and still.. You all complain. Petty.... redundant... baseless... argument. Wow, I didn't realize treating people with respect was baseless, petty, redundant. Pack up your toys and go home. Is this the stance of the 501st or personal agenda?? And how does this constitute being civil.
ForlornHope[501st] Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Wait...didnt the guy request to be banned?
Amish Trooper Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Wait...didnt the guy request to be banned? He asked for his account to be deleted.
TK 6918[501st] Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Why is everyone ganging up on Paul? Give him a break, he isn't the one recasting stuff...
Jangojedi Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Why is everyone ganging up on Paul? Give him a break, he isn't the one recasting stuff... No one is ganging up, have you read the thread? The part where it says good job. Can it be any clearer then that. Jason and Paul clearly state the respect that they have for one another. I actually agree with what Paul is doing. Paul has clearly shown in the past and present where he stands within his power to do so, he is doing a great job. KEEP things in there right CONTEXT, don't put words in other peoples mouths, those are your words NOT mine - no ganging up here & very civil. Suggestions or discussions on how to maybe better things for the future should not be seen as argumentative.
TK 6918[501st] Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 No one is ganging up, have you read the thread? The part where it says good job. Can it be any clearer then that. Jason and Paul clearly state the respect that they have for one another. I actually agree with what Paul is doing. Paul has clearly shown in the past and present where he stands within his power to do so, he is doing a great job. KEEP things in there right CONTEXT, don't put words in other peoples mouths, those are your words NOT mine - no ganging up here & very civil. Suggestions or discussions on how to maybe better things for the future should not be seen as argumentative. Eh you're right, I read part of the thread and it seemed like this was another complaint thread directed at Paul, the last being about Leather belts, and I was just kinda tired of seeing that kind of stuff..
Jangojedi Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Eh your right, I read part of the thread and it seemed like this was another complaint thread directed at Paul, the last being about Leather belts, and I was just kinda tired of seeing that kind of stuff.. No prob, no ill will towards you or anyone. Today, I trooped with a guy, who plans on joining the Jolly Rogers. He showed up with his Tie Pilot stuff for us to look over, asked him abt the bucket, he said his mother had bought it off ebay for his birthday but didn't know of the brand . No big deal, he picks up his helmet and his index finger punched through the skin just below the left eye socket. I asked him to text his mom about the purchase, she answered back SFP. That suck dude. Sorry to hear about your waste of time painting it up and all. Being new to the hobby, he didn't know. That sucks, told him not to be discouraged. It happens. My advice to him was to find out who SFP recasted off of, and buy from directly. Unless they copied Don Post, I also referred him a proper prop maker.
Runnriottt Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 I see it this way. Personal agenda? Nope. Don't give a rats patotie. None of you all own squat. Neither do I. Yep, I have a one off Vader lid. Want to sell it for all this crap going on. We are losing our minds. And I say OUR. This is a TK forum. The ruling was for a TK based recast. If you are making TK stuff and are in the 501st and making a difference in the community it seems to me Paul has taken action and will continue to do so. Pretty clear to me. If you are not a TK artisan, then you are here for the argument, titled "Civil" or not. Its heated, its baited and its based on opinion and I am sure we will at some point get to hear about "morals", "agandas", "rights" Blah Blah Blah. This DL took a stand on things in the scope of his power. I foresee a ton of band wagon beaters and I don't like it. This should be TK related. This is a TK site. Want to fight the Legion, do it on the Legion boards. Just Fed Up. The take your toys and go home comment fits. Don't wand recast don't offer. I have said it before. Nothing new from me. As is this whole topic nothing new. Look at your agendas. Why are you offering up in the first place? Before the rocks start flying examine the one throwing them. I know I have had to. SHOW me another maker that is in the black and giving stuff away at cost. Show me another that is offering things for raffle, for charity and for troopers that need it. Show me another so I can eat my hat and offer him thanks. I knew one. CAP. He did that. What did the community do? Run him down. One more. TE2. If you have problems with your armor, TE2 goes out of his way to help, even buy the armor back. Did he banter for respect? Nope. Flat earned it. From all of us. What PT did is not cool BECOUSE of who TE2 is. This isn't about recasting. This is about those that care about the community, those that care about troopers and those that share knowledge on how to build, wear, mod and troop these costumes. If you are here for the wrong reasons then I for one hope that a new crop of artists runs you out of biz in the ways accepted. New artists will come out making new and coll stuff. Maybe its time for a change of guard. Bet that stings a tad. Not to start the fight, the fight has been started and will continue until we end it, know our place and accept that. TM. True talent. Made his stuff. Guess what. Picked on on the RPF by Gino. Why? Its good stuff and speaks for its self. Know what happened? Many came to the defense. Let your work and your actions do your talking. Can the "He stole from me" finger pointing garbage. It will work out in the end just like this case with PT. Yea, I am spooled up. The DL takes a stand and its not good enough. I need to troop more. In need to build armor instead of read history threads for a while. WE all need a time out, sit in the corner and realize why and WHO allows us to even have this stuff. "Food for thought" my butt. Sounds like "food fight" to me.
RBJ[501st] Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 You guys always play the IP card when prop maker whine and cry about their items being recasted so now Im playing it.Again unless these guys have a permission slip signed by GL giving them "rights" to mold the armor then they shouldnt be anymore protected than i am....... If this logic keeps being followed, you are effectively saying if I physically steal your armor at a troop it doesn't matter because it is all LFL's property any way.. In order to have a productive discussion about recasting, you have to first realize EVERYONE who has access to this thread is guilty of theft of IP, and take that out of the equation. Kudos to Paul for taking a stance and doing what was right.
Daetrin[Admin] Posted July 13, 2009 Report Posted July 13, 2009 Nathan - you hit the nail on the head so many times I think you took care of the counter sinking as well. This isn't about recasting. This is about those that care about the community, those that care about troopers and those that share knowledge on how to build, wear, mod and troop these costumes. Yup, this is the heart of the matter. "Food for thought" my butt. Sounds like "food fight" to me. Yup. Nothing new or constructive is coming of this thread, really. Everything that can be said has been said, over and over and over again.
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