Contraversial belt question

[TK-4935]

Hey Paul,

I found this picture (its a bit small, seems to have resized, I'll try and dig out the full size one)

 

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Now to me, thats leather. Others may see it as canvas but as its so difficult to say how can we decide that leather is not acceptable.

 

Do you remember the sandie shoulder pouch debate? It was always thought of as being leather but then someone said they thought it was canvas. Now canvas seems to be commonly accepted even though no screen used pouches have been handled and verified. Leather shoulder pouches are still acceptable (and even vinyl ones).

So if vinyl is acceptable as a pouch option for the MEPD then why not leather as a belt option for the FISD?

 

I'm not trying to stir up trouble fella, just asking

Edited January 15, 2022 by gmrhodes13
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[SuperTrooper]

I'll post a HD cap of that as soon as I capture it.

[SuperTrooper]

Here are three caps of Han's belt, along with a couple others.

 

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Edited January 15, 2022 by gmrhodes13
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[Murray1134[501st]]

Check the picture in this thread.

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You can see the edges of the belt fraying. To my untrained eyes, as well as my wife who has worked in a fabric store and has sewing experience, it looks like a canvas/duck cloth type material.

 

Personally, I think a leather belt could look really good. If it makes you happy to have it, by all means go with the leather.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited January 15, 2022 by gmrhodes13
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[89Batman[TK]]

I again state that I know a guy who was a TK in ANH and he says the belt was leather- now as you say his memory could be confused or your opinion could be overstated, it's all relative. I, too, aim for high standards hence upgrading to TM ( Now clearded)from my FX. Personally I choose to believe my friend as I see no reason not to. Also I would point out that Leather can also have that fraying effect,

I think you are loosing members over what is essentially still debatable.

[Smitty]

All the belts posted have a hem along the top and bottom edge. I wouldnt think that they would hem leather.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

From the evidence I don't see anything that would indicate these are leather. I guess I'm confused on what kind of membership this "costs" us? You don't need to be Elite to be a detachment member. And even for Elite you could just get a canvas belt to get that status and then troop with a leather belt all you want. Just like in MEPD I need all the kit to get deployed, but that doesn't mean I have to troop that way. Heck, you could get Elite here with an AP helmet then stick it on a shelf and troop with an FX.

 

I guess if people felt strongly about it we really should put up a poll to gauge interest.

[troopermaster]

The belts are canvas, no doubt about it. I suppose it's possible a few 'may' have been leather 'if' the costume department ran out of canvas while making the belts. Your friend in ANH could easily be mistaken as it was over 30 years ago. I've asked questions to ANH stormtrooper actors at the cons and they don't always give me the correct answers. Even though they believe they are right in what they are saying, I have evidence to the contrary. It was just another acting job to them and I doubt they took that much notice to the costumes they wore.

[89Batman[TK]]

See I still believe that in the same way many found items were used and make do was definitely a way to go for them that they used more than one material. I still maintain this is still a matter for debate

I have a leather belt with stitching on the edges like that.

I guess we will never know as becaause it is 30 years ago everybody is suggesting that even people who were there could be wrong.

[troopermaster]

Can you remember what you were wearing 30 years ago? I know I can't (probably because I was 6 at the time )

 

We know for a fact that actors in the OT have got details wrong in the past. I doubt for one second anyone thinks that these people are lying, just mistaken. People want to believe them just because they were there, but the evidence is out there which goes against what they are saying. Now, if this person has photos of leather belt, that's great and would back up what he is saying.

 

Like I said, there may have been the odd leather belt knocking around but the majority, if not all the belts were canvas.

[89Batman[TK]]

I'm not sure that the 'can you remeber...' is fair, we are talking about a wierd costume that no-one had seen before so it would be much more memorable.The only pics he had were poor polaroid continuity shots and I've been nagging him for a while to see them but he hasn't managed to find them and it is extremely possible they have been lost.

As for the 'wear a Canvas belt to achieve status and then troop in a leather belt' that somewhat seems to defeat the object to me.

I am happy knowing I have one of the best sets of armour you can get but I will continue to look into this as I think it is interesting eliminating or discovering new facts. Nothing is ever certain in these things.

 

 

BTW Paul did you get my email?

[Daetrin[Admin]]

I'm not sure that the 'can you remeber...' is fair, we are talking about a wierd costume that no-one had seen before so it would be much more memorable.The only pics he had were poor polaroid continuity shots and I've been nagging him for a while to see them but he hasn't managed to find them and it is extremely possible they have been lost.

As for the 'wear a Canvas belt to achieve status and then troop in a leather belt' that somewhat seems to defeat the object to me.

I am happy knowing I have one of the best sets of armour you can get but I will continue to look into this as I think it is interesting eliminating or discovering new facts. Nothing is ever certain in these things.

 

 

BTW Paul did you get my email?

 

1. Well the proof is in the pudding. What evidence we have is what we see on screen. Sometimes what we hear supports it, as using boy scout pack frames for sandtroopers. Also too we're not trying to codify one-offs. Even if one TK was walking around with a leather belt, that doesn't change our standard just like some TK's having no ammo counter on their E-11's or gaffers tape for hand plates, or missing tube stripes. These are minor inconsistencies of the prop/wardrobe departments rather than say the grappling hook + comlink substitution that Luke's armor has, which is a prominent part of the story line and has a lot of good reference shots.

 

2. No, having one and trooping with another does not defeat the purpose. Elite or MEPD is a recognition of costume achievement and an incentive for people to take their costumes to a higher level of accuracy than what the 501st policy calls for. To me it doesn't make sense to get an extra leather belt to troop in when one already has a quality canvas one with plastic inserts, however FISD isn't out to dictate how people decide to troop - which is a personal decision, no? What matters is that if we did a roll call at a con they could still show up in 100% conformation (e.g. not get the belt then throw it in the rubbish).

 

3. No, I did not get your email.

 

I think the other Paul really hits the nail on the head and his logic is sound. Perhaps your friend really does remember wearing a leather belt. Perhaps he's even right. Perhaps he was just standing in the background and we never see it. At this point we can only go by screen caps. Reports of what was found in the LFL archives support what we see on screen but are not used as the sole source of information, just like interviews from 30 years ago confirm the boy scout pack parts. This wasn't a memory recorded recently, but an interview made at the time.

 

Paul

[Daetrin[Admin]]

One last item: while it's all well and good for FISD to have an Elite (or whatever) program and develop and own those standards, it is *never* our place to tell people how to troop. If the GML of UKG wants to wear a canvas belt, I'll proudly troop next to him and keep is post-trooping pint full.

 

[HPDblues[TK]]

One last item: while it's all well and good for FISD to have an Elite (or whatever) program and develop and own those standards, it is *never* our place to tell people how to troop. If the GML of UKG wants to wear a canvas belt, I'll proudly troop next to him and keep is post-trooping pint full.

 

 

Bravo sir, bravo...

 

T

[bobby fletcher]

SuperTrooper said:

Here are three caps of Han's belt, along with a couple others.

 

 

Here's another good picture

Edited January 15, 2022 by gmrhodes13
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[89Batman[TK]]

Chaz- your first picture there actually looks like leather to me mate! As it is fairly curved and rigid unlike canvas which generally would conform more to the shape of the body. It is also considerably whiter than the clearly obvious canvas belt that Luke is wearing in your later shot, I'm a little confused as to the relevance of the rear shot of the three TD's unless you are trying to suggest we troop without lids and calf armour lol!

[89Batman[TK]]

I wondered if there had been any other thoughts on this? I am still yet to be convinced that the belts were all canvas and am a little confused as to why there are exceptions made with regard to the gloves ( the screen used were clearly rubber with latex handpieces) and yet we are so rigid and certain when it comes to the belts. I intend on changing my holster so that it is correctly attatched behind the belt ( thanks for the advice on that Billy) but I prefere the look of my leather belt and no one , it seems, can conclusively prove that all the belts were canvas, and as I said I have been told otherwise.

[Smitty]

[89Batman[TK]]

Smitty- being that sure must be so re-assuring.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

SHORT ANSWER

At the time the standard was written there were no vendors for latex hand guards, so putting it in the standard was an unreasonable requirement to add given the goal of EIB standards. Until we reach a healthy number of EIB I’ve put a moratorium on upping the standards.

 

LONG ANSWER

You can blame me 100%. I was the one who created the EIB standards and originally they allowed both leather and fabric. Early on when the det was young we started upping the standards a little bit and removing leather belts were one of the refinements as there really wasn't any evidence supporting them at all and aren't representative of the costume in general (just like omitting a thermal det is not representative of the costume). Adding a d-ring to the blaster was another refinement that was added later.

 

However the changes being requested started becoming too many and too anal (such as the d-ring) and so unless it was a clarification I put a moratorium on changes to the EIB standards. The goal of EIB is to create a goal that is higher than Legion standards yet still readily attainable by detachment members. This is part of our charter (yes, I wrote that too):

 

“The goal of this is not to force people to achieve the higher standard, but rather to demonstrate what the costume can become and recognize those who achieve it.”

 

Until recently there wasn't anyone making latex hand guards so if we had made it a requirement it would be something that would be out of reach for most folks.

 

Right now my focus is to keep the EIB standards frozen until we have a lot more EIB Legion-wide. MEPD did not up the Police Officer standards until just last year and having over 100 MEPD Officers. Until then you could get MEPD with lines in the tears/traps, drop boxes, etc. That’s about 25% of all TD’s, the equivalent would be 500 EIB troopers.

 

So does this mean that I'll wait until we have 500 EIB troopers before upping the standards? Probably not - latex hand guards are getting easier and less expensive all the time, so at a certain point it will be an inexpensive upgrade and not much of an ask for people to obtain.

[Smitty]

Smitty- being that sure must be so re-assuring.

 

Extremely re-assuring

[89Batman[TK]]

Paul I don't 'blame' anyone. I am just a little confused as to why you seem to accept that there were or may have been leather belts but your argument seems to be that there weren't enough of them- I am pretty sure Han's belt was leather looking at it but this is open to opinion, it is certainly not the same material as Luke's I'm fairly sure of that.

As for the 'Dead horse' Jibe- Ridicule is often the first reaction towards different ideas, continually questioning leads to discovery and sometimes change, if potential change would rock your world so much that you are frightened by it then I pity you.

[firebladejedi[TK]]

It has been well documented that the screen used costumes had canvas belts. This has been confirmed by people who have been into the lucas archives.

 

They were made from several layers of plain canvas sewn together and then they used shoe whitener to give them the white colour. In the scenes of luke in the trash compactor you see the colour runs from lukes belt and hense the rough looking belt seen in the luke promo pictures.

 

I have seen pictures of these belts in the archives and if i can get them from my old desktop i will post them for everyone to see.

 

Maybe leather was used, maybe it was not. The fact of the matter is we have seen pictures confirming canvas and as yet i have not seen anything proving the use of leather.

[89Batman[TK]]

Mark as you yourself say 'maybe it was.. ' My friend described his belt as similar to an old leather guards belt ( the white leather dress belts) I choose to believe him he was afterall there! I still maintain that the pic of Han's belt earlier in this thread is not the same as Luke's, which is clearly canvas. I fully believe both materials were used and I think it is a shame that this is such a stumbling block.

As we know many of the original costumes are no longer with us so proving this is impossible if indeed you will only accept physical eveidence. I will continue my quest and hopefully bring something to the table that may alter your opinions.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

The reality is what I said before - at the time I locked the EIB standards there was no supplier for latex hand guards, so regardless of it's accuracy it was not readily attainable and thus it's not in the standard. At some point they will be, but not this year.

 

As for leather - what we've seen to date is just not conclusive enough to allow it in. This is very different from bubble lenses which while only seen on a few suits are seen close up and are unambiguous to even a non expert.