Discussing Possibilities: EIB and Centurion for Legacy Fem

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

As I briefly mentioned the possibility of EIB for the Legacy Fem (officially known as Stormtrooper, Legacy Era Female) in my current build thread for this costume, I figured it was best to create a separate thread for any discussion of higher levels of costuming (EIB and Centurion) for the Legacy Fem. That way any discussion on the possibilities of EIB and Centurion is not nestled within a build thread where it may be hard to follow in the midst of build updates.

 

Have the possibilities for EIB or Centuiron been discussed in reference this costume? I am currently looking through the research and CRL threads to see what others may have said during the stages of CRL formulation, but I am interested in what others here may know as well.

 

I'll post what I find when I come across good information, and if I see anything from reference material that may be intriguing. 

 

And to note this for the record, I am clearly not in any leadership or decision-making capacity when bringing up this topic. I am, however, curious about the possibilities given that I am in the process of building this kit!

 

EDIT (January 31, 2024): I felt a list of the possibilities discussed throughout this thread would be helpful here (note: these are discussions of possibilities, so nothing here is official).

 

Helmet: Straight tube stripes with the stripes having circular ends at the top and bottom

Abdominal Armor: Return edge width requirement around codpiece. Sides of the abdominal and kidney armor must overlap where the pieces meet, with no visible gap.

Belt Boxes: The large belt boxes should be functional with lids that open and close
Thigh and Knee Armor: Return edge width requirement around top edges
Lower Leg Armor: Return edge width requirement around top edges
Boots: Short heel for both Version A and B

Edited February 1 by Tilheyra

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Sounds like a plan, anyone can suggest changes to CRL's and the addition of higher level requirements is long overdue for this costume, when they are addressed is another matter and depends on how busy staff are. Once you have researched try to add text and images so they may be discussed by staff and members.

 

I would have a look at some of the other CRL's, ANH, ESB, ROTJ compared with Legacy trooper and see which common items may be added L2 and L3 requirements.

 

We are coming up to elections soon so this may need to be addressed by the next FISD command team dependant on how long it takes .

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

This process probably will take a while to analyze various references and work through the different details. Some of the details may also become clearer as I work through my own kit over the next few months. As such, it will stretch beyond the upcoming elections. Hopefully the new command team will have interest!

 

In addition to finding details in references, I really hope folks who have already built and/or wear this costume can chime in with their thoughts and experience. That is yet another reason I didn't want this discussion nestled within a build thread. Perhaps I can contact those I know who have built/worn the costume and ask.

 

So far, I have come across two points of interest that could determine specfic details for L2 and L3. First is the presence and measurement of different return edges, while the second is specifics on weapons that I found in the research thread for this costume. I do not have the time at the moment to adequately discuss the first point (but I will later today or tomorrow when I have time to crop photos of the Jes Gistang statue to show detail of the return edges to illustrate my points - I wish I had money in my budget to buy a Jes Gistang statue), but I will discuss the second point now.

 

This post in the research thread is relevant at this time: 

 

 

The research thread included a brief suggestion (which was not picked up in further discussion in the thread) to have a BB-23 and accompanying power packs on the belt as a required part of the costume for L2 or L3. Specifics on a weapon would follow the current precedents for L2 and L3, including the sole discussion of EIB in the current Legacy Fem CRL in reference to a DLT-19.

 

As there are 2 versions of the Legacy Fem, the version built could then determine the weapon required for L2 or L3. Version A (based on the Jes Gistang statue) could require the DLT-19 the statue is handling, and Version B (based on the Legacy comic) could require the BB-23 and power packs depicted in the comic.

 

The complication, of course, is that BB-23s are scant compared to the ubiquitous DLT-19, but there are current examples of BB-23s out there made by different individuals. UPDATE (March 26, 2024): The information that has been struck through is incorrect. The Version B backplate is available from Imperial Surplus! Please see post 16 by @kwdesigns for more information. Thank you, Kevin! I apologize for my error. Additionally, another complication is the Legacy Fem kit from Imperial Surplus only comes as Version A, and is no longer sold with the needed parts for Version B. Nevertheless, it appears enough reference material is out there to make the needed parts for the Version B kit if desired. As such, having different weapons requirements for L2 and L3 based on the version one builds seems is viable despite these complications.

 

That is what I have for now. As mentioned, I'll create another post later today or tomorrow discussing some observations about return edges.

Edited March 26 by Tilheyra

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

Return edges.

 

There are a few places on the statue where the size of the return edges departs from what appears to be standard across much of the rest of the statue. Specifically, there appears to be a minimal return edge on the tops of the thigh armor pieces and tops of the lower leg pieces. Additionally, there appears to be little-to-no return edge on the codpiece portion of the abdominal armor. 

 

 

 

The thigh pieces can be seen in this side and partial back view as well. Here it also appears the return edes are minimal when compared to other parts of the armor. For example, it appears the bottoms of the thigh armor have a wider return edge than the tops of the thigh armor. Another comparison can be made where the chest and back pieces meet on the side. The return edge in the openings for the arms made by the chest and back pieces show a wider return edge than the tops of the thigh armor pieces.

 

Additionally, it also appears that the tops of the lower leg armor also have minimal return edges, and this side view demonstrates that better because the tops of the lower leg armor are obscured in the front view by the knee armor pieces. 

 

The relevant question, however, is: Are these differences in return edge width due to the artistic license used in the crafting of the statue, or are these differences intentional? Hard to say because we do not have documentation to adequately answer that question. What we have are the differences we can see through the images (or on the actual statue) and the concern of how to best create a representation through our costumes. The Legacy Fem kit from Imperial Surplus is based on the statue itself, with some liberties taken to appropriately translate the proportions of the statue to human proportions. However, the return edges widths are not specified as part of building this kit, but the practice has clearly been to include return edges because that is what the statue has. L2 and L3 standards across many CRLs provide a clear indication of measurements for specific parts of costumes, so the argument of specifying the widths of return edges has precedent. As such, if there is agreement that the differences in return edge widths should be translated from the statue to L2 and L3 levels of the Version A Legacy Fem, then widths should be specified and followed. These could include differences in the return edges especially in reference to the codpiece, the tops of the thigh armor, and the tops of the lower leg armor. 

 

The return edge issue becomes much more complicated when the comics are taken into account. We are not contending with two-dimensional images of three-dimensional objects (a picture of a statue). Rather, we are contending with two-dimensional printings of two-dimensional images (images in a comic). Jes Gistang appears in 24 of these comic images. Little-to-no armor is shown in 6 of these images, narrowing our total to 18 usable images from which we may use to draw conclusions. There are indications in some of these drawings of the appearance of three dimensions. For example:

 

 

Three-dimensional detail in the shoulder bells, chest armor, abdominal armor, and belt boxes.

 

 

Chest armor, abdominal armor, and the bottom of the thigh armor (which appears to show no knee armor or some different version of knee armor not seen in other images).

 

 

Thermal detonator, helmet, back armor, and the vambraces on the forearm armor.

 

However, take a look at the top of the thigh armor in the third comic image (immediately above). No return edge. We have other examples as well:

 

 

No return edge on the tops of the thighs, nor for the codpiece. However, we also do not have a return edge on the bottoms of the thighs. But note the line and shading indicating a return edge under the arms where the chest and back pieces would meet.

 

 

No return edges on the tops of the thighs, nor on the codpiece. However, we see shading and lines to show three dimensions for the vertical details on the thighs and for the shoulder bells. We also see return edges on the bottom of the chest piece (where it would overlap the abdominal piece). 

 

 

No return edges on the thigh armor here either.

 

But an argument that may be brought up is that the details in the comic may change from panel to panel (image to image), and I do not argue against that. Consistency between these images does appear to be lacking in many respects, but a possible argument that enters here is what is more consistent across all of these images? Return edges or no return edges? That would need to be decided upon when determining the presence and width of return edges for L2 and L3 of Version B. The lack of return edges on the tops of the thighs and on the codpiece appear to be the predominant depiction across the different images (and I recognize I am not showing all of the images here). All 24 images depicting Gustang may be accessed here: https://readallcomics.com/star-wars-legends-legacy-epic-collection-tpb-1-part-2/

 

One more point should be noted before I draw this post to a close: Version B of the Legacy Fem is largely based on the statue, not on the comic (yes, I know my argument departs from the language of the CRL). Version B in the CRL includes details that better align with the depictions in the comic (different back plate, thermal detonator, and boots), but the base kit for Version B and Version A are the same (which is no surprise). The Legacy Fem kit is based on the statue:

 

As such, I would argue that in reference to any measurements for return edges, the statue should take precedence over the comic (I, once again, note I do not have decision-making authority). Any decision to that effect would be up to the detachment command team.

 

That is what I have for now. In the next post I will discuss details about the helmet.

 

 

[Sly11[Admin]]

If we consider original trilogy return edge, it’s not something of strong focus.

the reason being some of the armour had them, most of the parts actually didn’t.

Where return edge comes into our world is basically to give the real armour a look of thickness, rather than actual 1.5mm thickness of the ABS material it is made of.

On some parts, return edge is either desirable or necessary, on other parts it is either not needed or minimal in width for wearability and to an extent, pure comfort. 
A sculpted figurine will generally come down to artistic license, so there can be differences from various source materials plus we have never seen a live action version of this character. Due to this a happy medium can be drawn.

Your points on the weapons are interesting, and it is a shame the B version armour parts aren’t readily available otherwise it would be easy to have both an A and B option in the one CRL and all would be easy.

 

Fantastic input and research on this great character so far, you are definitely on the right track here with your outstanding observations.

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:37 AM, Sly11 said:

Where return edge comes into our world is basically to give the real armour a look of thickness, rather than actual 1.5mm thickness of the ABS material it is made of.

On some parts, return edge is either desirable or necessary, on other parts it is either not needed or minimal in width for wearability and to an extent, pure comfort. 

 

This is good to know! I figure the return edges for L2 and L3 of the OT troopers are as defined as they are because of the numerous references that can be used to establish the requirements. The comfort and wearability aspect is not something I have thought of as much.

 

On 1/13/2024 at 6:37 AM, Sly11 said:

A sculpted figurine will generally come down to artistic license, so there can be differences from various source materials plus we have never seen a live action version of this character. Due to this a happy medium can be drawn.

 

I certainly like the approach of finding a happy medium. From what I have been reading, my impression is that approach is what helped bring the Legacy Fem CRL to fruition! It seems that allowed for the treatment of the costume as a generic stormtrooper, rather than a face character, which I think was a good move as it allows anyone who wants to troop in the costume to do so without the limit of only 1 per troop.

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:37 AM, Sly11 said:

Your points on the weapons are interesting, and it is a shame the B version armour parts aren’t readily available otherwise it would be easy to have both an A and B option in the one CRL and all would be easy.

 

I have been tempted to create the Version B parts for my own build.

 

The Version B backplate was originally an overlay made by Imperial Surplus, but forum threads here from multiple years ago (2018) note that Kevin does not make those parts anymore (nor did they come with my kit when it arrived in November 2023). The CRL photos of the overlay show the different cutouts are various circles and rectangles (and a small, raised square). Drilling the right size circles, cutting and filing the correct rectangles, and gluing on a small square can be accomlished with pieces of ABS. Using strategically placed rare earth magnets would allow for switching out the back plates when desired to portray either Version A or Version B.

 

The thermal detonator details appear to also be relatively simple to accomplish with pieces of ABS. Heating up ABS in boiling water and wrapping it around the PVC pipe should do the job. It would be even simpler if one can find a thin plastic tube with a diameter just large enough to fit over the PVC pipe (and paint it white if needed). The right attaching hardware would allow to switch between the different thermal detonators at one's desire.

 

The only other difference is Version B has a much shorter heel for the boots. In my shoe size, finding shorter heel women's boots is easier than finding a tall heel (even though I have found tall heel boots).

 

This is all to say I may attempt this once I complete my Version A Legacy build! 

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

Now to discuss some details on the helmet.

 

The detail that stands out to me the most is the tube stripes. Here's a photo for the helmet (the same photo I used to discuss return edges):

 

 

What I find interesting here is that the tube stripes do not appear to be curved. The stripes appear to be straight with circular ends on the top and bottom of each stripe. This is counter to what is currently noted in the CRL, which calls for curved tube stripes.

 

Sure enough, the differences in the tube stripes have been picked up and incorporated into the decals Trooper Bay sells for those building the Legacy Fem helmet. Here’s an image of their decal sheet from their website:

 

 

The curved tube stripes called for in the CRL are on top, but the straight stripes with circular ends can be seen on the bottom of the decal sheet. There even appear to be two clusters of 4 stripes to mimic the appearance of the tube stripes in the comic (but that is an assumption on my part as I can’t find where else those clusters of 4 stripes would go – regardless, the tube stripes in the comic are in clusters of 5, not 4):

 

 

Another detail on the statue helmet is the presence of grey in the teeth area, but I am going to assume that grey is there to mimic cutouts in the teeth area, and not the actual use of grey paint. No one should be surprised that the comic is not consistent with this, as the mouth goes from all black, to black with grey, and to white with thin black lines (and this is across the different members of Joker Squad).

 

Overall, the main detail of importance is the difference in the tube stripes. Perhaps the straight stripes with circular tops and bottoms should be the stripes called for in reference to L2 and L3 (at least for Version A).

 

Also, although changes to basic requirements of the CRL is not my goal with this thread, perhaps a change would be desired to accommodate this difference. This could be allowing either the curved or straight tube stripes for basic approval. That way all of the current Legacies are still accommodated in the CRL (as well as those who want curved stripes in the future), while allowing for easier upgrades to L2 and L3 (if straight stripes would be required).

[Vicky_Velocipanda[Staff]]

Amazing work so far! We already talked about your idea on Insta and I love the enthusiasm for this costume!

A silly idea maybe, but I do love my usable pouches on the belt. If I remember correctly, this was optional while building the costume (has been a whole, correct me if I’m wrong). That might be something to include for higher levels.

Another thing are the shoes. I struggled with the CRL pictures and ended up heavily modifying a pair of boots to fit the requirements for my version. 
I‘d be happy to help here if I can! I have the Legacy armor and I love it! 

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

15 hours ago, Vicky_Velocipanda said:

I‘d be happy to help here if I can! I have the Legacy armor and I love it! 

 

Please do! I want this to be a collaborative effort with contributions from lots of people, especially from those who own the costume!

 

Also, I am aware of the fact that I (as a man) am commenting on the costume that has brought so many women into the Legion. Yes, I have the right to comment and propose changes to CRLs as a Legion member, but it shouldn't just be me commenting on this. We wouldn't be getting a full perspective if it was just me, or just men commenting here. 

 

15 hours ago, Vicky_Velocipanda said:

I do love my usable pouches on the belt. If I remember correctly, this was optional while building the costume (has been a whole, correct me if I’m wrong). That might be something to include for higher levels

 

The usability of the large boxes on the belt would be a good addition for L2 and L3! The CRL currently notes the lids for these boxes do not need to be functional, but requiring the lids to open and close would be a good addition in line with promoting accuracy of the costume. As the Legacy kit comes with hinges for these boxes, the required materials for functionality of the boxes are already at the disposal of anyone building the kit. 

 

15 hours ago, Vicky_Velocipanda said:

Another thing are the shoes. I struggled with the CRL pictures and ended up heavily modifying a pair of boots to fit the requirements for my version. 

 

Getting the right boots is too difficult, so I certainly have thoughts on the boots! I'll put those thoughts in my next post.

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

Boots.

 

This is the only other point where I hope basic requirements for the costume are also changed (the first point being my mention of basic requirements for tube stripes above). The boots are really difficult to find in general. The long-running tale across the Legacy build threads has been difficulty in sourcing boots that fit the CRL. Folks in 2018 were fortunate to have the run of boots from Imperial Boots (Keep Trooping), and some earlier Legacies used Gio's boots (but it seems some have had trouble lately getting approved with Gio's boots). Those who have built this costume certainly don't need to be reminded of the difficulty of getting the boots, because we have lived it, but I say this all here to document how difficult sourcing boots has been so those not familiar with the costume understand the difficulties. I argue a change should be made to basic requirements to reflect the difficulty of sourcing boots, not just when it comes to L2 and L3.

 

This brings me to a point I read in a different thread in reference to the accuracy of the boots for Version A. The boots on the Jes Gistang statue don't have that tall of a heel (unlike what is currently noted in the CRL). Here's the thread with that discussion: 

 

 

Here's a photo of the boots on the statue (more photos are in the thread linked above):

 

 

The statue heel isn't all that tall. There is still a noticable heel, but it is much shorter than currently portrayed in the CRL. As I mentioned above, this is the only other place where I think a change in the basic requirements is warranted (and I argue this change would be more important than the one about tube stripes, if there could only be one change). Perhaps the CRL could note Version A could have either the tall or short heel. Keeping the tall heel on the CRL would accommodate those who already wear the costume with tall heel boots, and also including the short heel would allow for greater options in sourcing boots for basic approval. The L2 and L3 requirements could indicate only a short heel.

 

Additionally, to reflect the difficulty of sourcing boots in line with the CRL, perhaps a note could be added to the section about boots to inform GMLs that sourcing proper boots is really difficult and the availability of suitable boots needs to also be taken into account, especially because of variation in sourcing and supply chains in different countries. This would certainly help as a common boot that can be found, and can be modified to include the needed strip from toe to tongue (that is clearly shown in the photo of the statue, as well as currently required in the CRL), tends to be the Chelsea-type boot, commonly with a lug sole and elastic on the sides. After gluing on the strip from toe to tongue, the only sticking point tends to be the elastic on the sides (and occasionally the sole). Some GMLs have allowed the elastic, while others have not (or have required the elastic be covered). I think clarifying language on the difficulty of sourcing boots without elastic sides may help with consitency across garrisons. 

 

To review the boots, allowing a shorter heel in addition to the tall heel for basic approval (for Version A of the costume), as well as language clarifying the difficulty of sourcing boots that look like the photos in the CRL, would help address the difficulty many have had with completing the Legacy Fem costume. As far as L2 and L3, perhaps the short heel should be called for as a requirement. 

[Sly11[Admin]]

For some context on basic level changes to a CRL, because it effects entry into the 501st, the LMO team (Legion level) would make a final decision on what they believe are fair changes.

This is done via a Poll of the LMO team and or suggestions of change that may not align with what you are aiming for.

The higher levels are handle by the detachment with less input from the LMO team. Generally they sometimes request different phrasing or change of word etc, but generally allow the detachments to build the case for higher improvements.

There have been instances where a part of a built, kit or, components, (let's use boots simply because that's the part currently under discussion), do not match the reference material (that's important) they simply won't green-light the CRL which means it is open and active for members to build against and get approved.

If you are edging towards one over another, add in images of the two and what it is about them, you wish to change.

 

Just on the two versions of the Trooper, if they are never shown with a combination of items from the different source materials, then it needs to be pointed out in a CRL that this component can only be worn with that component and cant be miss matched. Differences in the helmet matching specific backplate, those type of things.

We do this with accessories to keep it easier for members to read and understand so they get their build right and approved. The same would go for higher levels.

Comic books are far from ideal to use as a costume base, considering we are building in a live action manner and some things, as we all aware, just don't translate across well.

 

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

9 hours ago, Sly11 said:

For some context on basic level changes to a CRL, because it effects entry into the 501st, the LMO team (Legion level) would make a final decision on what they believe are fair changes.

This is done via a Poll of the LMO team and or suggestions of change that may not align with what you are aiming for.

The higher levels are handle by the detachment with less input from the LMO team. Generally they sometimes request different phrasing or change of word etc, but generally allow the detachments to build the case for higher improvements.

There have been instances where a part of a built, kit or, components, (let's use boots simply because that's the part currently under discussion), do not match the reference material (that's important) they simply won't green-light the CRL which means it is open and active for members to build against and get approved.

If you are edging towards one over another, add in images of the two and what it is about them, you wish to change.

 

This is very helpful! I was not aware of the nuances of how the LMOs would decide any changes made to base requirements. I have weighed the possibility of pursing the change about the boots (in addition to documenting my thoughts above), but I think it may be best to have additional input from many others before a proper proposal is created and sent to the LMOs. To me, the complicating factor in pursuing a change to the basic requirements is all of the Legacy costumes currently approved under the current CRL. In general, I do not know what happens with currently approved costumes when changes are made to the respective CRL (I assume changes are not retroactive, so current costumes don't need to be changes, but I don't want to draw a conclusion out of ignorance). 

 

Any proposal I would pursue out of this thread would be in reference to EIB and Centurion, so what I document here in reference to basic would be set aside for a different day. 

 

9 hours ago, Sly11 said:

Comic books are far from ideal to use as a costume base, considering we are building in a live action manner and some things, as we all aware, just don't translate across well.

 

Until I started looking through the Legacy comic a few days ago, I did not realize how much variation exists from image to image (I'm not much of a comic person in general, so I never thought about this). I can certainly see why comics are difficult to use as a costume reference.

 

As we have discussed, statues come with difficulties as well, especially with artistic license. Recalling my post above on helmet tube stripes, I figure (but do not know for certain) the appearance of the tube stripes on the Jes Gistang statue are due to artistic license. I imagine straight tube stripes are easier to produce on a statue with a large production run than curved tube stripes, especially for such a small detail that most people probably won't think much about. 

 

Overall, these issues show the benefit of collaboration in developing costume requirements, so we all can reconcile our interpretations of the various elements of the reference material and produce such amazing costumes!

[Sly11[Admin]]

To answer your question on all currently approved Legacy costumes, they would become what legion calls "Grandfathered in".

This means they no longer meet the CRL, but as it stand, they also don't have to upgrade their costumes to match the CRL.

If they left legion and rejoined, then they would need to have them re approved at basic level and make any changes to meet the CRL.

There has been talk at legion level of trying to change that rule, so any member would technically have a time frame where they had to update their costume to meet the current standard.

I can see how there would be members not in support of such a change, and others that would update their costumes without hesitation. That would also be dependent on how much work that would involve, no doubt.

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

Another item I thought about recently was the presence of side gaps between the abdominal and kidney armor. The CRL currently notes side gaps between the abdominal and kidney armor, ideally, should not be present. L2 and L3 could require no gap.

 

Some would not have to worry about this eliminating a gap, but others might.

 

The Legacy kit comes with an extra sheet of ABS plastic for the purpose of englarging areas if needed. As long as this extra ABS continues to come with the kit, the bulk of the materials needed to extend the sides of the abdomen and kidney armor would be present, thus allowing those pursuing L2 and L3 to eliminate any side gaps. An added plus is that the armor pieces themselves have no extra detail in the relevant areas of the sides, so adding a shim, securing it with an interior cover strip, and concealing the seam with ABS paste would be the process for those who need that extra material to eliminate the gap.

 

As can be seen in the statue and comic references above, no side gaps are present between the abdominal and kidney armor.

[kwdesigns[TK]]

Hello, Kevin here from Imperial Surplus. I just wanted to let you know Option B version (back plate cover) is available when asked for at time or ordering the kit.  I honestly have not had the option B requested in a long time (a few years) until just last week. I will continue to also provide some extra ABS with the armor kit to help with assembly needs. Any questions or want to order the Armor or Helmet kit please use the email on the Imperial Surplus website. 

[Sly11[Admin]]

59 minutes ago, kwdesigns said:

Hello, Kevin here from Imperial Surplus. I just wanted to let you know Option B version (back plate cover) is available when asked for at time or ordering the kit.  I honestly have not had the option B requested in a long time (a few years) until just last week. I will continue to also provide some extra ABS with the armor kit to help with assembly needs. Any questions or want to order the Armor or Helmet kit please use the email on the Imperial Surplus website. 

Excellent news Kevin, hope you are keeping well.

[Tilheyra[IPM]]

5 hours ago, kwdesigns said:

Hello, Kevin here from Imperial Surplus. I just wanted to let you know Option B version (back plate cover) is available when asked for at time or ordering the kit.  I honestly have not had the option B requested in a long time (a few years) until just last week. I will continue to also provide some extra ABS with the armor kit to help with assembly needs. Any questions or want to order the Armor or Helmet kit please use the email on the Imperial Surplus website. 

 

This is fantastic! Thank you!!!

 

A good lesson for me in checking with the original source!

 

I'll update relevant parts of my posts above to clarify this information!

 

I'm working on the Legacy kit now and I am very happy with it! The extra ABS you included with my kit has come in handy as I have needed to add extra material. I'm really excited to see it through to completion!