FOTK Basic-Level CRL Amendment Proposal to Allow Seams at Shoulder and Sides

[UT Trooper[TK]]

Can we put this up for a vote? 

 

I’m on my 3rd FOTK kit and the yoke has always been a problem. Recently I 3d printed the back/yoke and while trying to put it on, it snapped. Vacuum-formedABS doesn’t necessarily snap in that way, but it goes to show how much stress and repairs are needed in that area over time. There’s a reason why the Disney World troopers have the seam. It’s simply not easy to put on and take off.

 

There are other CRLs that completely omit parts from level 1. Think the ANH stunt TK and the snaps/rivets. Seams IMO feel less important than components. And if someone is building a TK, “couldn’t they reasonably add snaps/rivets?”

 

Let’s also not forget when the CRL allowed classic TK boots with the FOTK. It was an accommodation based on supply, but it was still an accommodation nonetheless. And at a much larger expense of accuracy than a seam. To me, this all comes across as exclusionary. We now have a new supply of FOTK kits that makes both the building process (no paint!) and the trooping much easier and accessible. It’s at the expense of a minor detail, but let’s be honest, the original kits were made of polyurethane which had flex capabilities. So if we are so stringent on accuracy then why aren’t we requiring poly kits?
 

In summary:

-We don’t have a supply of poly kits that flex

-Current kits can be made to look like movie kits but break over time

-People refuse to accommodate from the lack of supply of poly kits, but were perfectly fine to accommodate classic TK boots 

 

Makes total sense. 

 

[ChaseH]

I agree, mostly because of the functionality factor, and well, yes, Galaxy’s Edge’s troopers do it. Seeing them in real life was absolutely spectacular and I for sure didn’t notice the shoulder straps, nor would I even give it a second thought if I did notice. I really don’t think it should be a requirement. 

[Armor9[TK]]

Was recently at Galaxy's Edge for 2 days and tried looking for whatever "seam" you are all talking about and for the life of me I couldn't see it.  They looked like the walked off the movie set.  No one, not even most 501st member could spot the difference.  

This debate is a clear case of elitism and "if I had to do it, everyone should have to do it."  Just look at the pictures of events and even Celebration, how many FOTKs did/do you see?  Exactly, ask yourself why?  This is not a request to allow a Rubies custume.   We can be inclusive while still maintaining a high standard.  

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Sorry but I have to call this quote out, "This debate is a clear case of elitism and "if I had to do it, everyone should have to do it" This is not the case at all (well not in my case anyway) it's a case of following what we see on screen, references are what the CRL's are based on, not how an armor supplier has made their kits, other armor makers have supplied kits with seams/joins in the same way DN have and members have been dealing with them since 2015.

 

There's some pretty big differences between screen used and Disney troopers, BUT you can plainly see they also don't have the side seams on the AB same as screen used or the join between the top of the yoke and backplate same as screen used.

References

 

They do however have a one piece chest/yoke

 

And of course they suffer cracking in the same stress points just like the rest of us.

 

Screen suits displayed at Celebration 2015

No join top of yoke/backplate

 

No seam on side of AB but you can clearly make out where they have been joined as their is a high point there

 

I just don't see a valid argument to basically add/allow seams to a costume when they aren't present, the references are there and we've had members with DN kits who have used ABS paste successfully to remove the joins/seams to meet the current CRL's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[funkster[TK]]

This debate is a clear case of elitism and "if I had to do it, everyone should have to do it."  Just look at the pictures of events and even Celebration, how many FOTKs did/do you see?  Exactly, ask yourself why?  

As one of the 3 FOTKs at celebration I might say there’s possibly a couple of answers for that

Perhaps before DN starting shipping kits after Anovos failed, there wasn’t a huge number of places to go to get FO armour.
You had Jim’s which is heavy and needs work to be super accurate.
KB and some other ABS kits that weren’t super crisp.

Personally I went the 3d printed route and let me tell you, there is a sh1t ton more work involved in that than there is filling one seam on a shoulder.

I’m am also one of only 18 FOTS, in the 501st and that is even more down to lack of suppliers.

There isn’t the love for FO armour as there is for standard TKs because it’s a harder suit to wear and there isn’t the love for the sequels that there is for the OT

[TheRascalKing[TK]]

I'm a bit concerned that a few vocal individuals still seem to be really missing the point of this thread and the core argument being made.

 

WE ARE ALL AWARE AND AGREE THAT THE MOVIE SUITS DO NOT HAVE SEAMS. No question there. No reference needed.

 

The matter in question and the point that is trying to be made is:

Disney and LFL approved the Parks suits, the LICENSED Denuo Novo suits, and the Resistance version to represent their character, the First Order Stormtrooper, WITH SEAMS PRESENT in the aforementioned areas for practical reasons. If Disney and LFL are okay with it, why aren't we at Basic? Is the hyperfocus on this detail at the Basic level worth the exclusion of new members and perceived elitism?

 

This proposal is an acknowledged concession in accuracy in order to remove a potential blocker to membership and to help extend the service life of the ABS armor for more troops, and overall imo, isn't something that makes a significant difference to the appearance or impact of the suit. It is not a question of what is accurate or not, of new CRL creation, or even if the seams SHOULD be filled or not, it's about whether this requirement belongs at the Basic level.

 

I'd like to see it go to a vote of the general Detachment.

 

  

On 4/23/2023 at 5:23 AM, funkster said:

Perhaps before DN starting shipping kits after Anovos failed, there wasn’t a huge number of places to go to get FO armour.
You had Jim’s which is heavy and needs work to be super accurate.
KB and some other ABS kits that weren’t super crisp.

There isn’t the love for FO armour as there is for standard TKs because it’s a harder suit to wear and there isn’t the love for the sequels that there is for the OT

 

I acknowledge and agree with this as well, but I see this proposal as a possible effort to increase those numbers and show support for builders of FOTKs now that we DO have a consistent, quality, licensed supplier of what SHOULD be one of our CORE costumes. These kits have been out for over a year now, and ONE SINGLE PERSON has submitted for EIB on these forums, which is telling. Some people just want to troop and don't care about the seams. And the Star Wars-loving public doesn't either. 

 

Instead of turning people away from Basic membership, let's welcome them to these forums and encourage them to learn more about how to improve their accuracy while we make our push for 1500 EIBs. I can't see how we're going to hit that number any time in the next several years with the ever-increasing difficulty of DO review and revision of existing CRLs. Per the current administration, they "have never dumbed down a CRL to suit one manufacturer"... but I think this is a prime example where there is precedent, a clear argument, and some level of demand to make a logical exception to a standard of questionable value.

 

I appreciate the debate and everyone's input. I feel like the case has been made, and this can always be revisited under future leadership.

Edited April 24, 2023 by TheRascalKing

[TheRascalKing[TK]]

Also, just for the sake of transparency... I'm doing the freakin' slurry on my own suit seams.

 

 

But I'm doing it for my own interest in accuracy and possible EIB submission, and I'll be documenting the process in my build thread as others have done to try to help future builders. So I have no real personal skin in this game. For me, it's just a logical thing to question (ask me how I feel about rubber gaskets too), and is about recognizing the potential value it may bring to others, even if it doesn't affect me personally. That's dope that the 400 previously approved FOTKs did it, and I'm sure they all look great. I encourage them all to submit for EIB where this requirement belongs.

Edited April 24, 2023 by TheRascalKing

[themaninthesuitcase[Admin]]

19 hours ago, TheRascalKing said:

Disney and LFL approved the Parks suits, the LICENSED Denuo Novo suits, and the Resistance version to represent their character, the First Order Stormtrooper, WITH SEAMS PRESENT in the aforementioned areas for practical reasons. If Disney and LFL are okay with it, why aren't we at Basic? Is the hyperfocus on this detail at the Basic level worth the exclusion of new members and perceived elitism?

 

We're not making Disney park suits, which have several other concessions to accuracy. For reasons of comfort, service life and presumably ease of manufacture they are quite different.

 

We are making film accurate suits. This is not hyper focus, this is the 501st doing what the 501st has always done.  Make the most accurate costumes we can at any given moment.  That last bit is important, and the reason why initially it was allowed to wear ANH style boots, because there was no other option.  Now there is an option, and the CRL no longer allows for the older style boot. As resources improve, technology improves we get better at making them more accurate and the standards rise along with that.

 

The CRL says no visible seems. The old Anovos kits had a seem that need filling, these kits need a seem that need filling and iirc so did all the other ABS based kits.  378* "pre-production" "Anovos" kits where made and presumably a reasonably number of them where completed, and so had filled seams. Then add the kits for other vendors. 

 

Is the seam a huge ugly thing that stands out a mile? No. Will some GMLs approve it anyway, it wouldn't surprise me. But filling 4 seams is not the huge headache people are making out. Unless you don't wear proper PPE and work in a ventilated area.

 

We have it good here: 4 seams to fill and some glue, there is even actual instructions for all of that bar the filling. And a decal sheet!  Now consider other hard armour: a Shore trooper, clone, death trooper, scout.  All of those are so much more work, and have all their own set of issues with stuff breaking.

 

Fill the seams, this is the way.

*according to who made them, but with out double checking their notes.