CRLs and Reference Photos

[Armor9[TK]]

Now that I have my EIB, I wanted to address some issues with the requirements and the language used because as a lawyer, it is bugging me.

One of the issues I had is my Hobi-MIX tips were not weather.  You are correct, they were not.  They are not required to be weathered, but they can be, but even though it is not required it is being forced.  The CRL state: Correct Aerators/Hovi-MIX tips are present. Screens used shall be of a wide type mesh. The rim of the mic may be weathered, and the inside raised area painted white. Interior sides shall be painted black, mesh can also be painted black.

 

Note that is says “the rim of the mic MAY be weathered.”  The word MAY is a permissive word meaning that it can be weather but it does not have to be weathered.  Notice that other parts say SHALL.  Shall is a command word and means MUST. 

 

As such, the rim may be weathered but it does not have to be.  Some of us do NOT want weathered TKs, we should not be forced to have a weathered TK if we do not it to be. 

My original Hovi tips were black, the interior was back, the mesh was black and the inside raised area was painted white.  However, there was no requirement for it to be weathered but something that was permissive was forced to be done and that is not right.

When you are using words like may and shall please use them correctly and when reading them please understand how to read them.  They mean VERY different things.  Do not read may to mean shall and vice versa. 

My other issue is the CRLs verses the “reference” photos.  As well know, that with Star Wars, we can find pretty much any photo to justify our position.  For example, when Leia is stunned, there is a Stormtrooper missing ALL blue tube painting on the helmet.  Could the FISD start using that as their reference photo to make us remove all blue paint from the side of our helmet?  Sure, if they wanted to, they could.  That is the problem of using a few reference photos and ignoring the others. 

That is why I am stopping with my EIB and not moving onto Centurion.  When you look at the CRLs, the only thing I am missing for Centurion is I need to fix the 45 degree angles my belt.  I agree with that 100%.  However, the other items come down to people’s personal preference and the certain reference pictures selected. 

 

I know I am not going to change anyone’s opinion and stop the use of arbitrary reference pictures, but this has been bugging me, and I know it has bugged others, some who will not be vocal about it, so I wanted to add my 2 cents. 

 

Thanks.

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Congratulations reaching EIB once again trooper and I must say what a nice backdrop you used  

 

Just a little of info for you

 

Looking at your EI app I may be wrong but it appears you weathered your hovi's on your own accord (I may have missed it mentioned), it is an option in the CRL as we know the outside of the hovi's were black and some weathered so both are allowable hence the "may be weathered", a thread here on the subject

Some references

    

 

It was reworded as such in 2022 after being discussed with members, here is the announcement of the change

2 other approved EIB Hero's, no weathering

 

weathered

 

The DO's and those who work on the CRL's use the "generalized" / "majority" look, what details we see mainly by most is used as references, although "Mr No Stripes" was seen without tube stripes he is not used as a reference as he was only one trooper (although seen in a few scenes) One of the many discussions on the subject of "Mr No Stripes"  here 

It's a shame you are not proceeding to Centurion, you are so close, hope you change your mind in the future. 

[Armor9[TK]]

They were weathered pursuant to a PM from Chemi.

 

[Nairy[Staff]]

7 minutes ago, gmrhodes13 said:

It was reworded as such in 2022 after being discussed with members, here is the announcement of the change

2 other approved EIB Hero's, no weathering

This is not quite true in this case because I weathered my HOVI tips before my EIB approval, just thought I'd mention it. I applied for EIB just before this change happened

This is what my Hero got approved with

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

2 minutes ago, Armor9 said:

They were weathered pursuant to a PM from Chemi.

 

That's why I hand't seen it, I thought I was going blind. If it had seen it I would have made mention to the DO's

[Armor9[TK]]

Honestly I did not want to ruffle feathers or cause any delay to my application, hence me weathering them.  They have since been de-weathered but was just being used as an example.  

[Chemi[Staff]]

 

And why say it now and not when it was requested? ("delay to my application", really?)

I believe that DOs are not ogres, nor do we act arbitrarily. We always try to be fair and request the same from all applicants. 

And yes, after spending so many hours on your review, I feel the same or worse than you, as I don't at all like it when someone is discouraged when requesting an EI or Centurion badge.  

Personally, it's something that puts me off as well. Too many people questioning the work of the DO's lately. I'm not the one to talk about this, as I'm not anyone important here, but it's certainly something I'll talk to my superiors about.

I hope I am not disrespecting anyone with this reply, if so, I apologize in advance.

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

24 minutes ago, Nairy said:

This is not quite true in this case because I weathered my HOVI tips before my EIB approval, just thought I'd mention it. I applied for EIB just before this change happened

This is what my Hero got approved with
 

Missed that, had 5 pages open at once.

 

 

"Correct Aerators/Hovi-MIX tips are present. Screens used shall be of a wide type mesh.  The rim of the mic may be weathered, and the inside raised area painted white.  Interior sides shall be painted black, mesh can also be painted black".

 

The reason for these updates is for closer screen accuracy, as there is overwhelming evidence that the vast majority of the Hero helmets seen in the film were painted in this way.

 

    

 

As noted, the mesh may be painted black but this is not a requirement at any level.  

 

Note the above was from Joseph announcement, both the weathering or the rim of the mic tip "MAY" be weathered and also the mesh "MAY" be painted black, personally I would have disputed the rim weathering and perhaps this needs to be discussed yet again to be clearer, we know the mic tips were white resin, we know the inside sides and outside was painted black, why the rim is weathered just wear and tear.

 

And here is the Stunt which specifically calls for the rim to be white:

with the rim of the mic and the inside white or painted white.

 

Don't worry you haven't ruffled my feathers, I just remembered the issue of the mic tips and thought it had been made clearer and resolved. "May" and "Can" to me are options and as such it should be up to the applicant, I also think any changes should be posted in the applications and not via PM (DM for you younger folk) just so everything is clear.

 

 

 

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

And just found the thread with my disputing the white rim weathering  

 

Replies from our DL and adjustment made:

Can change it to Tips may be weathered, that allows both.

 

And updated

It now reads as follows....

 

Correct Aerators/Hovi-MIX tips are present. Screens used shall be of a wide type mesh. The rim of the mic may be weathered, and the inside raised area painted white. Interior sides shall be painted black, mesh can also be painted black.

 

So the option to have the rim painted or all black was discussed and then included, hence the use of the word "MAY"  

 

[Chemi[Staff]]

I also remind you what it says in the applications: "...and please keep in mind that  we consider both text (CRL) and pictures (screen caps/reference images) when reviewing submissions."

[Armor9[TK]]

1 hour ago, Chemi said:

 

And why say it now and not when it was requested? ("delay to my application", really?)

I believe that DOs are not ogres, nor do we act arbitrarily. We always try to be fair and request the same from all applicants. 

And yes, after spending so many hours on your review, I feel the same or worse than you, as I don't at all like it when someone is discouraged when requesting an EI or Centurion badge.  

Personally, it's something that puts me off as well. Too many people questioning the work of the DO's lately. I'm not the one to talk about this, as I'm not anyone important here, but it's certainly something I'll talk to my superiors about.

I hope I am not disrespecting anyone with this reply, if so, I apologize in advance.

 

Chemi, I am sorry if my post appeared to be a slap at you personally, that is not how it was intended.  There have been other DOs that have mandated the weathered Hovi Mic as well.  I was simply using that as an example.

I appreciate the time you took for my review more than you know.  I know you are all volunteers and are donating your time.  Being someone who works 60-70 hours a week, I know how valuable free time is and you are donating the one commodity that you cannot get more of, your time.  I do thank you. 

My issues are more with the CRLs, how they are written and how they are applied to the grading process. 

While I understand that you use reference pictures to give context to the written CRLs, there are many many many pictures available to use as we build our kits, but the only pictures we have reference to in the CRL are for the Hovi Mics. 

 

The first issue is the words used in the CRL.  Two of my biggest issues are the positioning of the tube stripes and ears.  However, the word used for this is “Ideally”.  The CRL states, “Ideally, the tube stripes are positioned approximately a pencil width from the side of the cheek,” and “Ideally, the placement of ears (and screws) should closely follow the rear angle of the trap above them.”  Ideally is aspirational language, not mandatory language, but it is being used interchangeably like the word shall.  If these two requirements are mandatory, the CRL should be changed to read, “The tube stripes shall be positioned approximately a pencil width from the side of the cheek,” and “the placement of ears (and screws) shall follow the rear angle of the trap above them,” if that is what is meant.  If it truly is aspirational it should be treated as such.

 

Regarding the “Han snap” the CRL only states, “A single male snap on the top right corner of the ab plate is present.” But there is no requirement listed for how far it should be from the edge, etc.

 

The same goes for the rivet for the thigh ammo, there is no spacing requirement at all.  If the spacing is a requirement why is it not listed like it is for the rivets on the abdominal armor? For the abdominal armor it states, “Rivets are equally spaced along the depth of the armor and about 10mm from the edge.”  For the abdominal armor, I get it, it is listed and therefore should be enforced, but for the thigh armor….?

 

The list can go on.  We, as builders, are referencing the various pictures we can find online which are clearly different pictures than we are being graded on.  If we are being graded on specific pictures, why are those pictures not listed and posted in the CRL? 

The same thing goes for measurements, if we are being graded on the placement of snaps and rivets, those placements should be listed in the CRL, or pictures placed in the CRL.  The placement is clearly listed for some items, but not others.  For us to build to the CRL but then told there are other, different requirements that we never knew of or have seen before, can only appear as arbitrary to those of us on the outside. 

 

I can clearly see that my post has inflamed the situation and been taken personally, which was not intended.  The intent was to help those members that come after people like me.  To give those members a clear standard they can build to. If there is a measurement, give it to them.  If there is a picture they are going to be graded on, give it to them.  If something is mandatory, use words that convey that and not permissive or aspirational language. 

 

The spirit of my post was to try to make this a better place, not throw stones or piss anyone off; for that I apologize. 

 

[TKSpartan[Staff]]

36 minutes ago, Armor9 said:

The intent was to help those members that come after people like me.  To give those members a clear standard they can build to. If there is a measurement, give it to them.  If there is a picture they are going to be graded on, give it to them.  If something is mandatory, use words that convey that and not permissive or aspirational language. 

 

 

Hi Scott,

 

Adding to what @Chemi explained , we the DO team are not here to discourage anyone but to serve and help . I support completely Chemi's feeling .

 

The FISD has tons of building resources not only a large Gallery Section for reference images, many build threads and  approved EIB an Centurion apps, All of them in order to help those who want to build his Armor just for basic approval or to go above and beyond to the OPTIONAL higher levels of accuracy EIB and Centurion.

 

Also there's a clear statement into each CRL , (NOT ONLY TO FISD), that  advice the builders to reach the respective Costume Detachment for more detailed info.

 

This Visual Guide has been reviewed by the detachment staff and the LMO team and is certified for use as a minimum approval guideline for GMLs. GMLs are free to approve this costume type.

 

• This document is not intended to be a detailed how-to on costume construction; rather a visual guide to be used for 501st costume approval. Details on construction may be found on the respective costume detachment web forum.

 

So, the info is there, the help is there and all of us into the FISD are willing to help and make this a better place as you rightly stated.

 

All your positive comments will be taken in account for future CRL changes and revisions that takes time and  proper process.