My long-awaited Anovos/Denuo Novo kit has arrived!

[Peregrinus]

I am building this as Captain Cardinal, but posting here, as everything I'm doing applies to a standard FOTK (minus boot armor), just with white paint instead of red. I want to catch maximum eyeballs. If the Mods That Be truly deem it inappropriate, it can, of course, be moved. @ukswrath I'm gonna lean on your insights, here. Your build thread for the earlier Anovos suit has been an invaluable primer, and your take on what is the same, what is different, and what to do about it would be most helpful.

 

A technical question, as I've been out of the loop for a bit... Has onsite photo hosting increased? Or is the cap still bizarrely low? If I have to link offsite photos, I'll need to spend a while tonight getting things uploaded. It's a lot easier if I can just upload them inline as I type out a post.

 

First off... Anovos lied. Shocker, I know. Remember when they said the test pulls they got from China weren't sharp enough, so they re-started from scratch to make inversion-forming dies -- where the plastic gets sucked into a concave form, rather than pulled over a convex one? So that way, all the crisp detail is on the outside where it needs to be? The test pulls from that were what they showed a couple years ago before Celebration. A couple people got kits and then we heard nothing more... But Disney mysteriously had a whole bunch of familiar-looking suits manning their "Rise of the Resistance" attraction at both US parks. Well, I just went back and looked at those pics again, and those pieces are what I just got from Denuo Novo. The "wastage" shapes and tells are identical. The pieces I unpacked were absolutely pulled over a convex form. The sharpness of the edges on the insides of the pieces is evidence enough of that, and a few even have some minor webbing out on the wastage. So if any inversion-forming dies were milled, we never saw any pieces made with them.

 

That's not to say these are awful. Some of the edges aren't as sharp as they ought to be, and I'll be addressing that. There have been some improvements since the early publicity and 501st-only suits... And a few things that are definite downchecks in my book. The ab boxes, left-calf "kit kats", thigh holster bracket, and all four belt boxes are all cast resin. For most of the ab boxes, that's a blessing. The cutouts to fit the contours of the ab plate are moulded in. No painstaking shaping required. Same with the kit kats and holster bracket. On the other hand, the belt hanging boxes will now require a lot of work to make functional, if one wants to go that route, and the center-front boxes are inaccurate in minor ways I'll show when I get to pictures. Also, the holster bracket is one piece -- base and stacked plates together. All of it cast as one fused piece. Impressive, but I have to cut the plates portion off, as I have R2dan's aluminum upgrade. And the thermal detonator and its mount are all a single solid piece. So that's gonna get addressed, so all that weight isn't pulling down on the mounting plate.

 

I wish they'd kept the forearms as they were for the early release kits. Careful cutting is required to make something more resembling of the film costume's assembly. And, of course, the cutouts back by the elbow aren't TFA-accurate (somewhat similar to the way Finn's were cut, but not identical). I can fill those areas in, though. The codplate is the trimmed-up version. Some TFA suits had had that done, for whatever reason, but it's considered more a feature of the TLJ revision. I got a KB TFA codplate that I'll be swapping in.

 

Someone please let me know the best approach to pictures, currently, and I'll start with the visual aids tonight.

[Doggydoc[Staff]]

Glad you finally got your kit.  Looking forward to following your build

 

Most are using imgur for posting pictures. 
 

 

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

1 hour ago, Peregrinus said:

I am building this as Captain Cardinal, but posting here, as everything I'm doing applies to a standard FOTK (minus boot armor), just with white paint instead of red. I want to catch maximum eyeballs. If the Mods That Be truly deem it inappropriate, it can, of course, be moved. @ukswrath I'm gonna lean on your insights, here. Your build thread for the earlier Anovos suit has been an invaluable primer, and your take on what is the same, what is different, and what to do about it would be most helpful.

 

A technical question, as I've been out of the loop for a bit... Has onsite photo hosting increased? Or is the cap still bizarrely low? If I have to link offsite photos, I'll need to spend a while tonight getting things uploaded. It's a lot easier if I can just upload them inline as I type out a post.

 

First off... Anovos lied. Shocker, I know. Remember when they said the test pulls they got from China weren't sharp enough, so they re-started from scratch to make inversion-forming dies -- where the plastic gets sucked into a concave form, rather than pulled over a convex one? So that way, all the crisp detail is on the outside where it needs to be? The test pulls from that were what they showed a couple years ago before Celebration. A couple people got kits and then we heard nothing more... But Disney mysteriously had a whole bunch of familiar-looking suits manning their "Rise of the Resistance" attraction at both US parks. Well, I just went back and looked at those pics again, and those pieces are what I just got from Denuo Novo. The "wastage" shapes and tells are identical. The pieces I unpacked were absolutely pulled over a convex form. The sharpness of the edges on the insides of the pieces is evidence enough of that, and a few even have some minor webbing out on the wastage. So if any inversion-forming dies were milled, we never saw any pieces made with them.

 

That's not to say these are awful. Some of the edges aren't as sharp as they ought to be, and I'll be addressing that. There have been some improvements since the early publicity and 501st-only suits... And a few things that are definite downchecks in my book. The ab boxes, left-calf "kit kats", thigh holster bracket, and all four belt boxes are all cast resin. For most of the ab boxes, that's a blessing. The cutouts to fit the contours of the ab plate are moulded in. No painstaking shaping required. Same with the kit kats and holster bracket. On the other hand, the belt hanging boxes will now require a lot of work to make functional, if one wants to go that route, and the center-front boxes are inaccurate in minor ways I'll show when I get to pictures. Also, the holster bracket is one piece -- base and stacked plates together. All of it cast as one fused piece. Impressive, but I have to cut the plates portion off, as I have R2dan's aluminum upgrade. And the thermal detonator and its mount are all a single solid piece. So that's gonna get addressed, so all that weight isn't pulling down on the mounting plate.

 

I wish they'd kept the forearms as they were for the early release kits. Careful cutting is required to make something more resembling of the film costume's assembly. And, of course, the cutouts back by the elbow aren't TFA-accurate (somewhat similar to the way Finn's were cut, but not identical). I can fill those areas in, though. The codplate is the trimmed-up version. Some TFA suits had had that done, for whatever reason, but it's considered more a feature of the TLJ revision. I got a KB TFA codplate that I'll be swapping in.

 

Someone please let me know the best approach to pictures, currently, and I'll start with the visual aids tonight.

Great to hear and looking forward to seeing your build

 

Unfortunately everyone still needs to use a online image host for posting photos on our forum, you could just imagine being the largest forum in the legion how much hosting we would need if we hosted everyone's photos. Imgur is what most are using now, a how to here 

 

 

 

[ukswrath[Staff]]

Glad to hear you finally received a kit Jonah. There's a lot of knowledgeable folks here so you should have plenty of help along the way. Looking forward to your build. 

 

 

[Sly11[Admin]]

Fantastic news Jonah, looking forward to your build thread.

[Peregrinus]

So I'm still uploading pictures, but I took a break from cutting and sanding to make some more observations. The instructions, which have not been revised since sometime under Anovos' tenure and an earlier conceptualization of the kit, are disressingly unclear on exactly where to cut, and one has to look to reference images. There are also a lot of edges that are way too rounded/soft compared to the movie suits, and need a good flexible filler to build up the edges. The instructions also have us using way more velcro than I'd like, and I'm looking at better closures for at least some of them. I'd like to rig something for the outer chest at least somewhat akin to the movie suit. The instructions also do not have us opening up the center-back seam on the kidney plate, and using the side closures -- which shouldn't exist -- to get it on and off (i.e., yet more velcro). Also velcro for the cod and butt, rather than snaps. So much velcro. *sigh*

 

The instructions are also woefully unclear on how the spats are attached to the greaves. Thank god for the build threads on here, but I'd welcome any insight on what to do with these. Thanks to Tony, I have the gaffers' tape and mesh fabric to put behind the various cutouts that the kit gives us stickers for. I have notions for how to up-detail the recesses in the handplates, forearm boxes, the one ab box with the recessed square, the triangular recesses at the top of the backplate, and the "O" in the backplate proper. But I'm looking for all the ways I can get this to the highest standard of assembly and detail. There are many areas where I feel the film suits dropped the ball, and I want to do better where it doesn't conflict with the visible canon. That is to say, nothing I do is going to look different from the film suits -- just better up close, and maybe more functional than uselessly decorative.

[Peregrinus]

@gmrhodes13, I need a bit of experienced opinion, here... I am getting Teresa's rubber-look gaskets, I have a bunch of Tony's upgrades, and I'm all-around aiming to make this suit to the highest standard I can. One of the things that bugs me about the film costume, though, is how a lot of it was managed. The parts that were obviously designed to be the opening side, with the clips and all that, are glued shut, the clips decorative -- while the side that does open is a really sloppy overlap and/or velcro closure. The first suits that Anovos made back in 2015 had movie-inaccurate features in that regard, like the inner thigh seam that butted and glued to look like a hinged piece to complement the latched outer seam (that also didn't open, but still...).

 

I was already going to make the spats functional by gluing the rear extension and making the clip functional with the snap approach -- the reverse of how the instructions say to do it (and, IIRC, how the movie costume works). Unlike the alpha versions, the forearms on these are two pieces instead of four. The bit on the movie costume that was left partially un-attached is now a single moulded piece with the sides, that overlap the outer forearm piece. I'd like to see what I can do here, and also with pieces like the biceps and legs, to make the decorative clips more functional, put hinges where the design indicated they should be, engineer things so everything closes up tight, with no velcro spacing, no gapping, no overlapping. Since I am not building this as a standard (or heavy) FOTK, but as Cardinal, I know there's no Centurion standard I could strive for. So what say you to the notion of building this "better than the film costume", so long as nothing obviously visually clashes with the look of the movie costume? About the only things a sharp-eyed examiner would notice would be the non-overlapping inner thighs and calves, and non-velcroed biceps.

 

If you think I ought to stick with the canon reference for those overlapping bits, what would you recommend to make those look as clean and deliberately designed as possible?

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

1 hour ago, Peregrinus said:

So what say you to the notion of building this "better than the film costume", so long as nothing obviously visually clashes with the look of the movie costume? About the only things a sharp-eyed examiner would notice would be the non-overlapping inner thighs and calves, and non-velcroed biceps.

 

If you think I ought to stick with the canon reference for those overlapping bits, what would you recommend to make those look as clean and deliberately designed as possible?

I like the idea, as you say as long as it doesn't interfere with the canon references, but in saying that is there an advantage? most of the pieces really don't need clips as they slip on, they are only a non functioning detail added to the kits more for looks rather than use so are you just making more work for yourself with much gain.

 

It's a shame about the mods Anovos/DN made they definitively lost some of the accuracy. Although TLJ was a little different in some of the construction, especially the overlapping of parts and not stepped and also slightly curved. 

 

Eventually there should be higher levels for Cardinal, many would be the same as the FOTK as that's the base of Cardinal. Phasma just put her spin on the FOTK armor and adjusted to suit herself.

[Sly11[Admin]]

Cardinal will definitely have many of the same Centurion elements that the standard TFA TK does, considering it is from the same time frame.

I actually made a post on this just the other day in the Anovos Denuo Novo FOTK delivery possibilities thread, I'll just place what I wrote here as well.

 

from the other thread....

Currently Rubber gaskets are only required for Centurion, and we aren't inclined to change that.

Latex look for EI would be no issue at all.

There are a couple of rubber gasket makers around still which may ramp up a little if demand increases now DN are shipping out kits a plenty.

Cardinal is based around the TFA era so armour construction would be the same.

I can't see a reason why the initial Cardinal CRL can't have Centurion elements considering it is close to the standard FOTK, so anything that aligns at that level really should be included

The following are TFA TK Centurion requirements, of which all would meet Cardinal for centurion in details as the novel state,s he was issued his armour by Brendol Hux, it wasn't custom made like Phasma so a standard issue armour although in the red colour makes the most sense.

The cape due to lack of real reference would not have enough to require anything above basic. Conflicting references don't help matters at all as some have silver trim and the Book image doesn't.

 

Neck seal

Chest plate side groves

Support tabs for shoulders

Bicep Trap details

Fore arms

Glove palms

Gaskets

Ab box seams

Shinny shorts

Thigh seams

 

[Peregrinus]

@Sly11 -- so Teresa's rubber-look neckseal and gaskets wouldn't fly for Centurion? My main objection to rubber gaskets is if they're solid, like the originals, they really impede movement. There was only one maker I knew of who did "hollowcast" rubber gaskets, and he hasn't been doing it for a while. As you said, though, now that the kits are moving, I'll ping him and see if they might do another run...

 

Can you clarify a couple things for me? The chest plate side grooves... That mean the moulded-in "separation seams" the outer chest plate has? This kit has the right spacing, but all the edges are soft, and I'll be sharpening them up. I shouldn't need to go to the extent of cutting the wings off, cleaning things up, and regluing them with a backer plate. Bicep traps? Are those the "stepped" recessed detail? What is meant by "forearms"? And while I know the ab boxes need to be done separately and attached after painting, so as to have visible seams, where are things with the thigh holster bracket and the left-calf "kit kats"? My instinct is to do at least the former as seamless.

 

Regarding the Cardinal-specific stuff... I've talked to Del a lot about him, trying to fill in details and iron out the inconsistent representation, and I have a couple takeaways:

 

• He should have the same cape, in the same orientation, as Phasma. The TFA Visual Dictionary calls it out as a "traditional First Order command cape". And, as others have said, if a uniform isn't uniform, it isn't a uniform. The cover artist depicted Cardinal on back cover as a mirror counterpoint to Phasma on the front -- silver armor with a red stripe on a cape off the left shoulder, versus red armor with a silver stripe on a cape off the right shoulder. It was done without consultation with or approval from the author. She agrees it would be stupid for uniformity and practicality (gonna get in the way if he tries to draw his sidearm).

 

• He should have boot armor like Phasma's, in the same red as his armor. That was what was in her mind when writing, that was what was behind the passage where Vi spat blood on his feet and absently noted it was a different red from the "polished plastoid" it landed on. She hadn't thought about the boots underneath. Regular troopers have white, like their armor. But Phasma's are black, with armor plates to match her armor, and after mocking up both versions, black boots with red armor looks better.

 

• He looks like Kalani Robb. I do not. So I'm going to be bucket-on most of the time.

 

But yeah, pretty much everything else is straight TFA Heavy without the vest (sidearm on thigh holster, carried F-11D Heavy when appropriate). Though that brings me to...

 

@gmrhodes13 -- I apparently need to take a closer look at how the TLJ suits differ. I knew about the elbows. I knew the trimmed-up cod from some of the TFA suits became standard. Am I reading that right, though, about the overlapping being different? I have studied the pics from Celebration 7, my 4K screen-grabs, and whatever else I can find from the period and I know the inside seams on the biceps, thighs, and calves all overlap -- some sloppy, some less so. One of the Celebration suits had such a clean, aligned overlap, it looked like an OT Stormtrooper. When I post pics later, you'll see how this kit has the inner-leg seams. To match the TFA look, I'd definitely have to cut the front half back to slight concave curve, instead of the very convex it comes with. Is that double-convex thing a TLJ hallmark? Or just an Anovos inaccuracy?

 

The bicep and calf, though, I'd like to eliminate that inner seam as an opening point altogether, if possible. And take my inspiration from the cleaner suits and have all of those seams even and tight (if still overlapped). The thigh I can make non-opening. The bicep I probably can, too. The calf, not so much. Since I'm already making the spats functional, it made sense to me to see if I could do the same with the calves.

 

Sorry for all the questions. This has suddenly just gotten very real for me, after years of hypothetical.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Peregrinus

[Sly11[Admin]]

Neck seal will be fine as all have been in the past, rubber gasket is definite for centurion as they don't have the stitch lines between each rib, it is our most accurate level after all.

I have another vendor who makes the rubber gaskets, I'll just need to dig up his info for you.

Always use screen references and check out the gallery images we have.

 

https://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/category/27-tfa-tk-reference/

 

I'm pretty sure the boots had the LMO team hamstrung for a while as there are no visual references, so the black series figure has red and that's the direction they went.

If its not specifically described in the book then that figure is sadly the only other reference you really can use.

[Peregrinus]

4 hours ago, Sly11 said:

I'm pretty sure the boots had the LMO team hamstrung for a while as there are no visual references, so the black series figure has red and that's the direction they went.

If its not specifically described in the book then that figure is sadly the only other reference you really can use.

Which is weird to me. Statues and action figures used to be considered supplemental reference only -- if it showed something that was unseen on the primary reference (onscreen use or three agreeing ancillary visuals from different sources), it was considered apocryphal untrustworthy. Since we know the Black Series figure has other known inaccuracies, that automatically casts doubt on any "new" information it might convey. Going by established precedent, the "polished plastoid" descriptor in the book automatically nixes uncovered boots, as that term has been used universally since the early '90s to describe what Stormtrooper hard armor is made out of (which annoys me for other reasons, but that's a rant for elsewhere). When the material Stormtrooper boots are made out of has ever been referred to, it's been some Swarzy version of "leather-like".

 

So, to me, "polished plastoid" = hard armor, and "not the same shade of red" = red hard armor. The Black Series figure used regular FOTK feet, rather than a Black Series Phasma, so it already contradicts, just as them using a TLJ head instead of TFA. So I can't trust that depiction of the boots under the hard armor that should be there and isn't. Phasma's armor isn't all that custom when one steps back. The greaves are lengthened because she tall. The chestplate is unique, but similar to the standard model, and probably a concession to the material it's made out of versus the other. The groin armor is borrowed from another extant trooper type. The helmet is a rejected prototype. The Visual Dictionary pointed out the cape as a uniform element, and not personal swag. Since Cardinal predated her as a First Order Stormtrooper Captain, she is copying him in wearing it. If she copied the boots and their armor, too, rather than making that up, it would make sense as another minor hallmark of officer versus trooper. Retroactive continuity.

The main problem is that none of the prior reference is in agreement, with each other or the author's intention. I always hate when no one talks to the person who came up with the thing to find out how to depict it.

 

So does that mean if I stick to my guns with the boots, it won't be approvable?

Edited October 13, 2022 by Peregrinus

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

9 hours ago, Peregrinus said:

 

@gmrhodes13 -- I apparently need to take a closer look at how the TLJ suits differ. I knew about the elbows. I knew the trimmed-up cod from some of the TFA suits became standard. Am I reading that right, though, about the overlapping being different? I have studied the pics from Celebration 7, my 4K screen-grabs, and whatever else I can find from the period and I know the inside seams on the biceps, thighs, and calves all overlap -- some sloppy, some less so. One of the Celebration suits had such a clean, aligned overlap, it looked like an OT Stormtrooper. When I post pics later, you'll see how this kit has the inner-leg seams. To match the TFA look, I'd definitely have to cut the front half back to slight concave curve, instead of the very convex it comes with. Is that double-convex thing a TLJ hallmark? Or just an Anovos inaccuracy?

 

The bicep and calf, though, I'd like to eliminate that inner seam as an opening point altogether, if possible. And take my inspiration from the cleaner suits and have all of those seams even and tight (if still overlapped). The thigh I can make non-opening. The bicep I probably can, too. The calf, not so much. Since I'm already making the spats functional, it made sense to me to see if I could do the same with the calves.

 

Sorry for all the questions. This has suddenly just gotten very real for me, after years of hypothetical.

Cod is definitely different to the TFA, you can make out two lines/ridges with the TLJ and they are a little wider, also wrap around under the crown jewels (cod)

 

 

 

Forearms

 

TFA

 

TLJ/TROS

 

 

 

 

This is a good thread to read through, has a lot of the TLJ/TROS details

Some (if not all) clips were different

 

TLJ TD pipe is a separate piece and has the control panel and top recess cut out. TFA it's molded.

 

TFA

 

Here you can see the separation on the chest stops at the top ridge so its not a complete cut

 

TFA gallery is here https://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/category/27-tfa-tk-reference/

 

Here's a good reference of the TFA closure of the bicep, recess (butt join)

 

TLJ/TROS curved overlap

 

Thigh overlap TFA (with tape in this image) 

 

Thigh curve overlap TLJ/TROS

 

Shins they used velcro

 

Also on spat clip. Note the extra notch of material under the clip  

 

Personally I think you will have to keep the inner seams as they are there on screen references

 

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

5 hours ago, Peregrinus said:

Which is weird to me. Statues and action figures used to be considered supplemental reference only -- if it showed something that was unseen on the primary reference (onscreen use or three agreeing ancillary visuals from different sources), it was considered apocryphal untrustworthy. Since we know the Black Series figure has other known inaccuracies, that automatically casts doubt on any "new" information it might convey. Going by established precedent, the "polished plastoid" descriptor in the book automatically nixes uncovered boots, as that term has been used universally since the early '90s to describe what Stormtrooper hard armor is made out of (which annoys me for other reasons, but that's a rant for elsewhere). When the material Stormtrooper boots are made out of has ever been referred to, it's been some Swarzy version of "leather-like".

 

So, to me, "polished plastoid" = hard armor, and "not the same shade of red" = red hard armor. The Black Series figure used regular FOTK feet, rather than a Black Series Phasma, so it already contradicts, just as them using a TLJ head instead of TFA. So I can't trust that depiction of the boots under the hard armor that should be there and isn't. Phasma's armor isn't all that custom when one steps back. The greaves are lengthened because she tall. The chestplate is unique, but similar to the standard model, and probably a concession to the material it's made out of versus the other. The groin armor is borrowed from another extant trooper type. The helmet is a rejected prototype. The Visual Dictionary pointed out the cape as a uniform element, and not personal swag. Since Cardinal predated her as a First Order Stormtrooper Captain, she is copying him in wearing it. If she copied the boots and their armor, too, rather than making that up, it would make sense as another minor hallmark of officer versus trooper. Retroactive continuity.

The main problem is that none of the prior reference is in agreement, with each other or the author's intention. I always hate when no one talks to the person who came up with the thing to find out how to depict it.

 

So does that mean if I stick to my guns with the boots, it won't be approvable?

I think there is a big difference between the thoughts of someone who writes a book compared to what we know and see onscreen or what we think it should be in this case based on FOTK. Phasma made modifications to her armor we know this and I'm pretty sure it is mentioned what she takes a copy of but I've not listened to the book in a while (I hate reading, LOVE audio books LOL). To me Cardinal was based on a regular FOTK (prior to Phasma being around). I don't think there is mention of a cape in the book, so this may have been added after she knew about Cardinal but I may be wrong, it may have been in the archives who really knows.

 

There's also some differences between concept art and what's realisticly made, may as also through in what a costume designer interprets and what it should really be, take Rogue One armor, should be orignal trilogy style, not what we see. Same as using FOTK parts take the gloves and boots on the Rogue One, shouldn't happen but that's the costume department I guess. 

 

There has to be some compromise with a few things when you don't have full references, really should Cardinal go ahead as a CRL, I think yes but I'd base it on the FOTK with a cape similar to Phasma if not exactly the same and FOTK style boots. Phasma is not your normal sized trooper so boots may not have been available in her size, or she wanted more protection hence the boot covers, again who knows.

 

The black series helmet is wrong according to timeline, should be a TFA version for Cardinal but I believe the LMO's were in agreement to allow the TLJ helmet. 

 

AT the end of the day it's the LMO's who make the final decisions on any costume and they go one what reference material there is as well as some interpretation of what a costume should have. 

 

No doubt Andrew will have better information as he is the one speaking to the LMO's, from memory I think standard FOTK boots in red had been agreed.

 

 

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

In case you hadn't run across these, they are a couple of TFA accuracy builds (you probably have seen them, but just in case)  

 

And accuracy updates in @ukswrath's build thread

 

[Sly11[Admin]]

TFA era so TFA helmet was the last discussion I had with the LMO's, that was a little while ago now though.

Pretty sure it was standard TFA kit, boots and the addition of the cape, but I cant recall the cape specific details. I will need to refer back to those communications which I shall do after work today.

I'll also get those details for rubber gaskets.

 

 

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Info as far as I've seen on the forum

 

@Sly11

I have spoken with the LMO's and they are ok with this to go ahead.

There are a few things they would like to see in your thread with regards to research.

1. TFA helmet is what the LMO's are leaning towards as this is a TFA era character that was gone before TLJ (yeah I know Hasbro used the TLJ helmet, but it's a conversation you and I can have)

2. They would like to see research from cross-referencing as cardinal has a description in the book and now the action figure that should take care of any parts that are different from the standard Storm troopers.

 

@Sly11 Helmet:

LMO's have stated it needs to be TFA. Also Toys are only used as a basic reference, this character has a book that places it in a time frame. Who knows what the next LMO's will want or change, it seems to change yearly so at this stage this costume is being built based on discussions had and the book detail and original images.

The black series Cardinal toy is a lazy effort to simply use the latest molds they had of the standard trooper simply done in red plastic, but it is interesting that they produced the galaxies edge Black series helmet as TLJ

 

@Sly11

Shawn, may I ask what it was about the boots the LMO's had issue with?

I think you mentioned either the cape or the gloves as well.

 

@CrookKnight

I have everything done other than the color of the boots & gloves. Also, I cannot afford the cape yet…so I am on hold for a while.

[Sly11[Admin]]

Thanks Glen.

 

Also the rubber gaskets are available through  Thorsson and associates Workshop.

This guy does some amazing props and costumes and he also does the rubber gaskets.

I inquired a while a go but he usually take around 4 weeks with his workload to get them cast up then he ships them out.

 

Pricing looked reasonable too back then but you will need to check

 

You can message him through his FB page and he will give you price and time frame, but I believe some of our members have used him.

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100061258101660

 

 

 

[Sly11[Admin]]

More info from my discussions with the LMO's

the black series figure is to be used at an absolute minimum, and in fact they did come back to me and state for the boots only.

So to me this is standard FO TK boots in red, no plates.

It is also assumed that all TK's have Thermal detonators so you should certainly make sure you have one.

 

The cape is actually the only contentious issue now I have put all the info back together.

You mentioned something about a reference book? do you have an image showing the cape with the trim?

If so it could be on the table for sure.

Also don't forget if in the future anything new comes to light or they make him a live action character, then the CRL would be 100% updated to reflect what is seen on screen.

You could then revamp your costume if you so desired to remain the CRL model as if you are the first to complete the costume, you will be the one at the top of the CRL

 

Summary

Armour: TFA includes correct parts like forearms etc etc specially for Centurion level. Would be great to have a Centurion spec model for the CRL

Helmet: TFA

Boots: red no plating.

Thermal Det: TFA version.

Neck Seal:  no issue centurion it just needs to be 11 ribs and shiny so Teresa's is perfect.

Gaskets: Fabric at basic and EI, rubber at centurion

Cape:  post any additional image references you have so I can supply the LMO team for further discussion and review. I spoke with them today and they have requested this.

 

EI and Centurion: all Standard TFA should come across easily to Cardinal perhaps with some additional items in the future. We only know what we know now.

 

I think you are lucky with this one as the CRL is pretty much written aside the colour upgrades, Cape, weapon colour etc, Use the TFA CRL and once you are close to completion we shall discuss the photos we need etc.

LMO sign off at the end and happy days we get another CRL at long last.

 

[Peregrinus]

Thanks, both of you. @gmrhodes13 -- I am pleased to say the DN kit comes with TFA style clips. The inner legs and biceps are curved overlap TLJ style, though. I shall address those. The chestplate side cuts are also TFA. The forearms I cam make TFA with the wastage on the parts and some scrap.

 

@Sly11 -- thanks for the lead on the gaskets. I'll ping him tonight and update my order with Teresa.

 

The cape is deductive reasoning, the text of the novel, and conversations with Del. Phasma is a Captain. Cardinal is a Captain. The TFA Visual Dictionary points out Phasma's cape as a "traditional First Order command cape". Del gave Cardinal a cape in the book, since he's a Captain, too, and intended it to be identical to Phasma's, including which shoulder it is worn off of. Several times, he is absently tapping his sidearm, and it is a visible tic, not hidden by the cape hanging off the other shoulder, as the mirrored cover art shows.

 

And I will protest in the strongest terms the decision on "red FOTK boots" to match the action figure. Hasbro has gotten at least as much wrong as right over the years Their Black Series "gaming greats" Force Unleashed blue Senate Guard, for instance, is a repaint of the Black Series Kir Kanos, complete with the wildly inaccurate Crimson Empire style armor. The Black Series Prototype Boba Fett is a repaint of the Black Series ESB Boba, down to the non-Prototype-suit flamethrower and other inaccuracies. And so on. Now, in this case, the figure contradicts the primary source -- the text of the book. We don't have to see it to know what "polished plastoid" does and does not mean. I will, reluctantly, get a pair of red FOTK boots from Gio to get approved. But I will tell you now, I will be wearing my black boots with red armor plates at every event I can.

 

On to pictures now...

[Sly11[Admin]]

For the record, I also hate using Black series figures as a reference even a stop gap as inaccurate and lazy as they are.

Can you please add the exact and full book text description of the boots, it will be of help for sure.

[Peregrinus]

6 hours ago, Sly11 said:

For the record, I also hate using Black series figures as a reference even a stop gap as inaccurate and lazy as they are.

Can you please add the exact and full book text description of the boots, it will be of help for sure.

 

Stormtrooper armor was established as plastoid back in Alan Dean Foster's novelization of Star Wars. That was carried forward in the Ultimate Guide to the Star Wars Universe, first published in '84, and the West End Games RPG and Decipher CCG in the late '80s and early '90s. So that's solidly set. I need to run down exactly when it first was put into the lore, but Stormtrooper boots are "synth-leather". Alan Dean Foster wrote the novelization for TFA, as well, and I need to re-read that, but I don't remember the composition of the First Order Stormtrooper armor or boots specifically called out in there. The Visual Dictionary provides little new, beyond referring to the armor material as "betaplas" -- presumably an updated formulation.

 

The Visual Dictionary also refers to the plating of Phasma's armor being taken from a salvaged Naboo yacht once owned by Palpatine, which is where Del got that aspect of the story in the novel.

 

Relevent exerpts:

Quote

As stormtroopers surround her starhopper, blasters pointed, Vi's attention is drawn to their leader. She's seen troopers before, of course, but never one like this. His bright-red armor is a strange twist on the regular stormtroopers', but the sanguine violence of the color lends it an air of bloody menace their tidy white just doesn't possess. An armorweave cape falls from one shoulder, and a spherical black droid floats in the air to the trooper's side.

Quote

He stands before her now, legs spread and arms crossed. His blaster is clipped on his hip, red and gleaming. His red-gloved fingers tap against it, another reminder.

Quote

Two more jolts, and he pulls up her hanging head by her hair. She spits blood on his boots from her bitten tongue and stares at the splotch on the flawless plastoid. The blood and the boot are not the same red, much as Brendol Hux might've liked them to be.

Quote

It takes everything she has to raise her head and look him in... well, where his eyes should be. The black chasms of his helmet lenses show only her pleading face, drowned in red. [In case anyone wasn't sure what color the helmet lenses should be.]

Quote

The first thing she notices as he places the red helmet on the table is sweaty blue-black hair, clipped short. When he turns to face her, she sees a much younger-looking man than she was expecting. He's maybe forty, although the lines on his face and the distance in his dark-brown eyes suggest he's already lived a lifetime. His skin is golden tan with freckles and darker patches that speak to years of sunburn. Smile lines crinkle at the corners of his eyes and lips, but he's not smiling now.

Quote

His fingers briefly tug on his own armorweave cape, identical to Phasma's, not that he's on any posters.

Quote

"I was his personal guard. He handpicked me on Jakku, trained me himself. I was infinitely loyal. From the time I first put on this armor, he trusted me to keep him safe." He holds up his arm, displaying the flawless red. [Echoing the "flawless" descriptor about the boots, earlier. Same word and same material.]

Quote

"I trained her, as he asked, and then they gave her a captain's cape of her own, and suddenly my own cape didn't mean as much."

Quote

Locking the door as he leaves, Cardinal storms through the hallways, his captain's cloak flying behind him.

Quote

The older Hux had swallowed both glasses happily and gone to his meeting in good spirits, Cardinal walking before him, blaster at the ready and captain's cape flowing behind him. [An earlier time, before Phasma. In the rest of the book, has has the SE-44C on his hip, a la Phasma and the FOTK Heavies, but no blaster rifle. This passage was inspired by the shot that got very familiar from the TFA trailer of Phasma walking through the corridors of Starkiller Base, blaster rifle held at port-arms. Thus I consider it an optional part of the costume, but one he hasn't used (much?) since he stopped serving as Brendol's personal guard.]

Quote

His hands ball into fists. His right one uncurls, and his fingers dance over the blaster on his hip. [In case there was doubt about which side he wears the sidearm on.]

Quote

When the strap around her chest is undone, she's surprised to find her body pitching forward, and Cardinal is forced to catch her or watch her fall. The impact makes her cry out, and then she's crushed by hard, smooth plastoid as he tries to help her move a body that's lost all feeling and strength over the last day. All she can see is red. [Just reiterating: Plastoid. Hard. Red. Armor. Boot was plastoid. Flawless. Red. Like the rest of the flawless red plastoid armor. Authors' word choices matter.]

 

There are some other incidentals, but that's the meat of the references from the novel text.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Peregrinus

[Peregrinus]

A. Ny. Way. *lol* Pictures. I'll start with the traditional layout:

 

 

As has been discussed elsewhere, a lot of the parts got changed to the updated version from TLJ, despite most of us ordering this as a TFA suit. Some rolled with it and are building the TLJ version. I am putting in the extra to TFA this thing. The cod is off to the side because I got a TFA one from KB. The thighs and calves and biceps all have the TLJ style curved overlap on the inner seams. I gotta address that. And the forearms are a whole topic unto themselves. First, though, the truly problematic bits...

 

The belt boxes are all cast as single-piece resin parts:

 

These are fairly late-stage worries. I can get them sorted and attached to the belt pretty near the end. But I'm currently trying to figure out what I want to do. I may ask KB for some plastic pieces, and use these to site the mounting screws in the same places...

 

Then there's the holster bracket. Of itself, not awful:

 

The cutouts aren't truly cutouts, as there's no undercut from where the lower pieces have larger holes. But I have R2dan's upgrade. There is, however, a problem:

 

The aluminum pieces are the right width. All the cutouts and screwholes are perfect and correct. They're just... short. As you can see. Just a couple millimeters, but... Who made the measuring goof, here? Should I just grind a millimeter off each end of the base part? How crucial is this difference, as far as approval? I know some bust out the micrometers, while others just glance and say "good enough". I got the aluminum pieces to be an upgrade from the less sturdy kit parts, but are those millimeters enough to ding me from EI or Cent?

 

Less problematic, but I just wanted to shout out to @ukswrath -- guess what they didn't fix?

 

I'll be using your approach to get the overlapping pieces to seat right. On the other hand, remember all the fiddly shaping you had to do with the ab boxes? Check this out:

 

(The big one is off getting some special attention.)

 

In general, apart from the belt boxes and the solid mass that is the thermal detonator, I am loving the resin detail pieces. Here's ab box #2:

 

Or take a look at the "kit kats" for the left calf:

 

And the rest of the fiddly detail pieces are clean and sharp. The rails for the forearms aren't moulded in:

 

And I am pleased to see the clips are TFA style:

 

And Tony... Check this out:

 

There's more, but I'm going to leave off here for now. More later.

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

We do like photos  

 

I think this speaks for it'self

Quote

His bright-red armor is a strange twist on the regular stormtroopers

Just a red version stormtrooper, but a Captain with the cape (mentioned below)

 

Quote

The blood and the boot are not the same red

Boots are red. Now whether they have Phasma covers that's another thing, Phasma came after Cardinal and personalized her armor.

 

 The cape however was mentioned that Cardinal had one first, Phasma was given a Captains cape later so her cape would be exactly the same as Cardinals, from this I would think you could use the Phasma CRL and reverse engineer .

Quote

“I trained her, as he asked, and then they gave her a captain’s cape of her own, and suddenly my own cape didn’t mean as much."

 

This passage may have made her want to change some aspects of the armor

Quote

With the stormtroopers’ help, Phasma soon had the white armor attached over her regular clothes. The fit was inelegant, as Elli was a head shorter than Phasma and a bit stockier, but the end result was that their greatest warrior had the best armor ever seen in the Scyre

Also

“Their armor fits, but the tall one is funny. Is it a clown?”

And

I have taken this armor from a dying soldier, so it was not made to fit me

So Phasma didn't like being made fun of, although there is no mention of her modifying the Stormtrooper armor when it was scanned but you would think so for the fit. Again who knows, no real info on why some of her pieces where the way they where but she must have changed some things as the standard white armor fit was inelegant

Quote

Then, piece by piece, she removed her stormtrooper armor, placed it in the scanning chamber, waited until it had been properly coded, and replaced it with the next piece.

 

Ultimately it will be the LMO's to decide, there has to be a little interpretation used without clear references, just hope to see this CRL come to fruition, would also have loved to have seen a Cardinal at the Disney parks, that could have helped immensely   

 

Looking forward to seeing the progress

 

[Peregrinus]

@gmrhodes13 -- you quoted part of the sentence, but not all of it. Stormtrooper boots are synth-leather unless something calls them out as something else. Which, so far, nothing has for the FOTKs. Plastoid has always been the armor. Even the FOTKs, despite the TFA Visual Dictionary calling it out as "betaplas" in one instance, still have it referred to broadly as plastoid in other works, including the later Visual Dictionaries. She spits on his boots. Which are flawless plastoid. The same descriptor that is applied to the rest of his armor by the same author elsewhere in the same book. His boots have red armor on them.

 

And yes, Phasma is too tall for the standard greaves. Hence the lengthening pieces at the bottoms. Except for the extra bits around fingers and wrists, which are ascribed to being nonstandard crushgaunts, everything else she's wearing is First Order gear. The Flametrooper groinplate, the prototype Stormtrooper helmet, all of it. The thighs and biceps and forearm armor and knees and handplates and shoulders are all the same pieces from the same moulds that the other Stormtroopers are wearing. The only difference is that the chest and back plates are hinged and the shoulders, rather than one piece, presumably because the chrome plating on the costume isn't as flexible as the urethane-based material the pieces are made of. Add the cape hides that join.

 

The only other nonstandard elements are the cape and the boot armor. The actress wears different boots in different scenes, and we can conjecture why, but all the publicity shots have her wearing black versions of the FOTK boots, with the armor over that. The novel establishes that, while we first see the cape on her in the movies, Cardinal had an identical one first, and that it's a First Order command/captain's cape. Since he has boot armor also, and since it's the color of his armor also, and since hers isn't called out as standard or non (just that they're "segmented sabatons"), but it's attached to standard boots, I'd defer to it being an additional detail of a First Order Stormtrooper Captain's kit. Including the black boots under the armor, as hers aren't gray or silver to match the armor on them.

 

The argument that they're red (synth-)leather boots does not make any sense to me, as there is nothing to support it, and plenty to reject it. Okay, so Vi's not looking at his feet in that first encounter in the hangar. She does later when she spits on them, and her attention is drawn to how her blood and the armor are different colors. Her observation at that first encounter that the color of his armor is a twist on standard is accurate. All of the shared pieces are the same. He just has a couple extra on his boots, that she wasn't paying close attention to at the time. Even Phasma, for the alternate helmet and groin armor and the greave extensions, still has 18 of 20 pieces in common with a standard FOTK, plus accessories (belt, belt boxes, pouches, gaskets, harness...). The same description (chrome plating as twist on standard armor's white) would apply, even without calling attention to the few differences.

 

Please don't cherry-pick the color and ignore the reference to the material in the same sentence, and sprinkled throughout the book. The only other First Order trooper that has any boot armor is the Flametrooper, and that's just a band over the arch. Doubt that's sufficient coverage for Vi to spit on it specifically. So yeah. Based on the book, Phasma's boot armor works best as another attribute of a First Order Stormtrooper Captain. Of which, at the time she was promoted, there were exactly two. And after Cardinal escaped, there was exactly one. So we have no other Captains to reference. Captain's cape and boot armor are the only differences from standard shared between them, and not specific to Phasma. And even then, the two non-standard versions of her kit are still established First Order items, and not invented by her. Since the only specifically called out piece of nonstandard kit are her crushgaunts, I'd call that implicit that the boot armor is also an established First Order bit of trooper armor. Since we don't see it on anyone else, and since it fits standard-build FOTK boots, and since Cardinal has armor covering most of all of his feet, logic and deductive reasoning keep bringing me back around to it being identical to Phasma's. Which Del confirmed in conversation. Author's intention, put down in heavily implicit word choices in the text. Maybe she should have found an excuse to slip in a phrase that his boots and boot armor were identical to Phasma's. She didn't think it was necessary to do so, as all the other cues convey that.

 

So if the LMO team decree they're to be unadorned red leather FOTK boots... Well... "I recognize the Council has made a decision, but, given it's a stupid-an impolite person decision, I elected to ignore it."

Edited October 14, 2022 by Peregrinus