ROTK 3D Print build

[gwf2683]

**** I NEED YOUR HELP ****

 

My plan is to 3D print all armor parts, then make molds of them, and finally to cast the final product in a polyurethane plastic.  For some parts (abs, shins, shoulder straps, etc) the polyurethane plastic will have a hardness of 90A (basically the hardness of a skateboard wheel) but has an elasticity of ~80%.  So it is much more durable than the 3D printed parts, and should not snap when I try to squeeze it over my chubby belly or stick my ankle through it.  While other parts (helmet, shoulder bells, etc.) which do not need to flex and would be less prone to breaking will be made from a polyurethane plastic which has a 65D hardness and only ~10% elasticity.  

 

*** Where you come in ***

 

What I need help with is making sure I am on the right track with things like scaling, dimensions, detailing, etc.  Because I will be creating molds from the 3D parts, I want to make sure all the details are squared away before I start molding.  If there is something that I need to change in the model, I hope to find out before I start molding parts.  

 

Most of the armor will not be permanently affixed, as I will be tearing it back apart to create the molds.  As an example, the abs are in 3 pieces temporarily held together with styrene and hot glue so that I can break them down into their components.  Also things like suspension systems, attachment methods, final paint, etc. wont actually be done until the final parts are created.  

 

So any help/feedback you can offer will be greatly appreciated. 

 

Don’t mind the big nasty glue seam in the middle.  This will be fixed before sanding and priming happens. 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by gwf2683

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Quite a big project looking forward to seeing the progress.

 

FYI using the "direct link" or link with image tag ie: .jpg, .png and so on, you images should show 

 

 

 

 

 

[gwf2683]

Thank you gmrhodes13, I just found the instructions somewhere on the site on posting photos.  I will get that fixed.  

[gwf2683]

How dramatic does the bump under the right eye have to be?  Is this enough, or does it need to be more pronounced?

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

5 hours ago, gwf2683 said:

How dramatic does the bump under the right eye have to be?  Is this enough, or does it need to be more pronounced?

It is a very subtle bump, barely noticable, you could check against references in our gallery sections

 

 

Also some nice comparison images here

 

[BigJasoni[TK]]

Geoffrey,
So you've decided to 3D print a TK... I've said this a couple dozen times since 2020 and as much as it sounds like a good idea, you really have to know what you're getting into, especially since I recognize the files you're using. Immediately let me start by saying that if it sounds like I'm trying to talk you out of this, I'm not. That would make me ultra-hypocritical, seeing how I've got 4 approved 3D printed costumes and am currently working on my second 3DTK. Additionally, with people like @ChrisThePropGuy out there making 3d kits and using them as forms for his molded costumes, what you're proposing is viable; you just have to start with an accurate base.

 

So, let me start off by reiterating some advice I was given when I did this 2 years ago, "take any feedback not as criticism, but as everyone trying to help you look your best!" This statement is absolutely true and has been proven to me countless times by individuals in the FISD. Also, this is the second time I've put it up here in the forum is as many days, so you know I believe it. With that said, if it starts to sound like I or others are saying your stuff is way off, it's because we're trying to help. Additionally, with the ROTK/ New Generation armor being set as the standard bearer for current and future SW productions, we're beginning to have countless high definition references to draw from. With so many references available, if a person starts going "off script" with their build, it's obvious almost immediately and those of us that take pride in the costume are likely going to attempt to steer you straight. 

 

Before I begin, I do want to let you know that the current CRL has the following requirement:

The armor parts shall be made from one of these types of materials or like materials: White fiberglass, ABS (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene), HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene), or Polyvinyl chloride (PVC).

 

Yes, many of the new costume pieces seen in production are created using flexible materials, but outside of Boba Fett's armor and a couple butt and cod armor pictures, we are still waiting for definitive evidence supporting its usage elsewhere. I've seen people post pictures of what they believe is "rubber armor," but more often than not, it ends up being the angle of the shot or a distorted picture. Not saying that it's not happening, just saying that there's nothing definitive with respect to the ROTK armor.

 

Let's get started:

 

Your abdominal armor is Akira Yuning's design and I believe the helmet face is DavidOs's V1 design. Here's my references:

The helmet on the right was printed by another member.

 

If you scanned these yourself and then started modeling in Blender, good on you, I stand corrected, but my first piece of advice would be to please contact the modelers before you start recasting their work; many of them don't want their work recast even for personal use. Personally, I have given away 3D designs and seen others "take them and run." I recently saw that one of our more notorious recasters stole my belt box design and started selling them as part of his recast Jimmiroquai kit. Additionally, several other vendors have copied my Din Djarin abdominal tasset research and work and are selling them off as their own. Am I going to pitch a fit? No, but it's one of those things that make me want to stop giving stuff away. I strongly believe in community over competition, so I do enjoy seeing work emulated, but you need to make sure you go about it the right way.

 

Again, please don't take this wrong. If you designed this stuff yourself, I applaud you, but I would caution you that the other designers might not take it the same way because it's eerily close, even in how stuff mounts to their bases. Regardless of the case, let's fix the mistakes everyone's making and get you a great set of armor.

 

I worked closely with Akira while I was building my first 3DTK and the abdominal armor was one of those pieces that he just stopped adjusting because it was going to be too much work. By the time I started seeing accurate screen used pieces and making requests to satisfy the requirements, he had already made approximately 30 changes to the set. Let me post a picture of Akira's work next to an accurate 3D model:

So it's a lot different. First and foremost is the size of the files. In the next picture I've offset the Z axis to show you the difference when the belt lines are matched up and they're still insanely different.

 

Besides the size of the abdominal armor, we also see distinct differences in the overall shape.

 

Notice the gently sloping lines I highlighted in black on the accurate file. The Akira file consists of solely straight, flat lines that don't give any dimensional accuracy to the costume. I say that knowing fully that every maker out there is making their abdominal similar to Akira's in shape; this is what I refer to as the "tube abdominal." I really don't have any problem with the tube shaped abdominal section, but where it's missing the mark is with the overall dimensions of the details. Things like the vertical ribs and 70 degree side ribs are just much smaller/ narrower than an accurate design, which throws off the appearance of the greeblies which are not pictured. This also gives a very odd appearance that can't really be explained without comparing it to reference photos. Most GMLs won't notice it, but something just looks off. However, I will say that Akira's greeblies are excellent and something I'll likely use in future builds. However, if you follow his lead in your design, you may want to correct the shape of the front buttons which are significantly deeper than any references show.

 

This picture might not do it justice, but they're deep.

 

While it's on my mind, I've said a lot of times now that I made a ton of changes to my kit that I neglected to cover in my build thread. This was one of them that I corrected by lowering the edges in Fusion 360. Additionally, the tiny belt backer on the bottom of the abdominal is a huge discrepancy that doesn't seem like a big deal until you attempt to mount your front belt. The lack of any significant backer makes the belt tip forward and not line up at the top. Also, if this in fact Akira's file, don't even consider making his belt. I walked him through the entire thing, but in the end I ended up making my own out of HIPS.

 

For the helmet face, I almost hate to say it, but you might want to consider scrapping this design. What kind of gives the face away as DavidOs's older bucket is the flat bridge of the "nose," the shallow "eye bags," the  narrow cheeks, small overhang on the brow extending between the eyes, tall sockets, large flattened eye corners, and pointy cheek tubes. Also again, if you designed this yourself, you have my apology, but if this is the case, then you and David scanned the exact same reference.

None of the above elements make the helmet bad, it just throws off the overall appearance of the helmet as a whole. Another helmet that has similar characteristics is the 850 Armor Works design pictured below side-by-side with a screen used helmet:

The thing that's most prominent in the 850 helmet that throws off the overall design is the narrow cheeks which yours possesses as well. This in turn affects the ear placement and gives the helmet a thin face/ tall appearance that isn't present in the screen used version. Also, take note of the eye bags that are very shallow on the 850 kit which is similar to yours.

 

The next thing I'd like to see you make changes to is the chest armor. There's another new member who is currently working on an 850 kit that uses a similar design and he's documented a lot of the frustrations he's had with the appearance of the armor. The big thing about this piece when compared to a screen used chest is that the accurate chest piece is actually very small. A lot of the new designs we're seeing, with the exception of the Jimmiroquai kit, have chests that more closely resemble OT armor rather than the ROTK appearance. Here's a SBS of a ROTK and an OT:

 

 

So quick analyses of yours: The overall height appears to be too tall which causes the "pectoral details" to sit very low. This also shifts the sternum section down way too far. Also, the shape of the sternum is way off; it's too wide and the angles are far too sharp. Even when you set your molds, this won't be alleviated.  This was one of the changes I asked Akira to make, but again, it was a lot of work. Next, the neck line is way too high which is one of the main issues with 850's kit. When you look at the New Generation kit straight on, even while wearing a helmet, you can see the neck seal. When the neck line is raised as it is in your print, your chin ends up overhanging the entire top of the chest piece which causes a sever "squatting" appearance.

 

For my 3d kit, I cut all of this out.

 

 

Next, and this is one that people keep overlooking, is the bell at the bottom of the chest piece. If you look at the screen used armor, this is very pronounced and has multiple curves, not just the one you see directly in front. In the following picture, look at the TK on the far left and note how his chest "swoops" from the apex of the pectoral detail down to the bell bottom. Also, note how much of a "swoop" there is from the far side all the way to the front. This isn't a gentle curve, but rather a very distinct, sharp rising curve.

 

 

Here's another picture of a Remnant. Look at how narrow the chest is at the armpits and how high the pecks are as well as the bottom curve:

Pay no attention to the helmet in this picture, the Remnant TKs had OT buckets.

 

So, since you're early in the design phase, and while you're making changes in Blender, I would implore you to consider these known issues. Will they pass basic approval? Maybe... probably, but you said you wanted everything to be "squared away." Ultimately, several of these things may be overlooked by a GML or others, but the basic requirement for approval requires us to "consider both text and pictures (CRL and Reference) when reviewing the costume." 
Please continue posting updates. There's a lot of people who will likely take interest in your work.

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

"Before I begin, I do want to let you know that the current CRL has the following requirement:

The armor parts shall be made from one of these types of materials or like materials: White fiberglass, ABS (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene), HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene), or Polyvinyl chloride (PVC)."

 

Just to add some info to this statement, it has been discussed to add 3D prints to the CRL's BUT it was decided as nobody to date has provided and been approved in a full costume it won't be added for the time being, this is not to say you couldn't have a 3D printed costume approved but you would need closely match references, we have a gallery section full of images for referencing https://www.whitearmor.net/forum/gallery/category/21-starwars-story-reference/

[Sly11[Admin]]

It always takes a trail blazer to initiate change,       It appears this trail has been blazed before lol,  do your best as it will be compared to what is currently available, which will start with your GML and the LMO's. for basic approval.

We only control the higher levels although we do write the CRL's.

No doubt that conversation will also include the FISD experts and DL when the time comes, so it won't be one person making a decision, it will be a team and a consensus.

 

Best of  luck with your build Geoffrey, we are here to assist where we can.

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Apologies for my previous statement it was pointed out by Jason BigJasoni has been legion approved with his 3D printed armor (geez my memory is getting bad) you can take a look at his build here 

 

 

[gwf2683]

@BigJasoni, Awesome info.  I appreciate the detailed look and feedback.  I knew that it was severely frowned upon to recast someone’s stuff with the intent of selling the product, but I was not aware it could be the same for personal use.  With that in mind, I will make sure I contact the file creator for permission before I proceed with that.

 

I was aware that the abs seemed to be a little short, but I didn’t want to scale it much to make them longer because it would distort the chest boxes.  Is there a more accurate file that you are aware of out there I should be looking for?  Or is it a situation where no one has quite gotten it right yet?  I did see in your build the issues you had with the belt, so I just created my own to replace it.

 

As far as the chest goes, I took a quick pass at trying to make the adjustments you pointed out (I love the drawing by the way).  Am I going in the right direction, or causing more harm that good? I dropped the neckline some, pulled the pecs up, and tried to adjust the angles on the pecs to better match the reference.  Is there a better file set out there that I need to be looking for?

 

Just a note on the material I planned to use (If given permission from the file creators to cast for personal use).  Although it does have a high elasticity, it is still a hard polyurethane plastic with the same shore hardness as a skateboard wheel or golfball.  It just doesnt snap if bent.  I read somewhere on this forum that the production costumes used on the film were made of an injection molded polyurethane plastic.  So my plan was to use a similar material, just not injection molded. I assumed that since may people are using urethane resin rotocast helmets (Like Smooth-Cast or like material), that using a similar material would be allowable.  I am wrong in that assumption?

 

On a side note.  Thoughts on a "just for fun" Obi Wan series Purge Trooper build?  I saw that a few people have made the 3D files for it.  I am assuming based on the Black Series action figure.

Edited August 22, 2022 by gwf2683
spelling correction

[BigJasoni[TK]]

@gwf2683 I'm glad you found this useful. Let me answer a few of your questions/ thoughts:
 

7 hours ago, gwf2683 said:

I knew that it was severely frowned upon to recast someone’s stuff with the intent of selling the product, but I was not aware it could be the same for personal use. 

Under normal circumstances, there's no issues, but you always want to check first. Here's the reason why: as a maker myself, I've already seen several of my items recreated and incorporated into someone's costume. I don't care if they want to try and honestly when they reach out to me, I typically walk them through the process. However, I've also seen people disassemble items I've sewn for them, create a pattern based off my work, then recreate a second one for themself. More often than not, the item they make isn't the same quality as the product I sold them, which is common due to the equipment they're using. In these cases, one of two things happen; either they take credit for something that started as my design (which is merely my take on Lucasfilm IP), or they throw my name out there like I made it for them. Typically when the later happens, I ask the costumer to identify that they actually attempted to emulate my work. However, many makers take it a little more personal.

 

The other issue is that items from some makers are easily identifiable, such as the Akira Yuning parts you're using which would be recognized quickly if you were to recast them. Honestly, having worked with him at length on the design of my ROTK, I'm fairly confident that he likely wouldn't have a problem with you casting his files into something a little more durable than a 3D print. Honestly, he even gives customers permission to sell printed costumes using his files, just not the files themselves. However, even with this generous gesture, the General Terms and Conditions forbid reverse engineering of the product.

The Buyer may not reverse engineer any Product and must abide by the terms of the license granted to the Buyer under this General Terms, as well as any additional Seller terms included with the Product.

 

This includes adjusting files in blender, or Fusion 360. Again, this is one of those gray areas that I always clear up with the original designer first. A good example are the Sean Fields shoulder and shin buckles I remixed with his permission. Sean's one of those guys who if you ask, he'll even send you the original F360 Archive files. The last time he helped me out, I asked how I could repay him and his response was "just say nice things about me."

 

With all that said, let me tie this to another one of your questions:

 

7 hours ago, gwf2683 said:

I was aware that the abs seemed to be a little short, but I didn’t want to scale it much to make them longer because it would distort the chest boxes.  Is there a more accurate file that you are aware of out there I should be looking for?  Or is it a situation where no one has quite gotten it right yet?

 

Someone definitely got it right, but those files are going to cost you. This is the abdominal section of the Mr Paul's Shoretrooper Build file set:

It is a near perfect representation of the screen used prop, but Paul is one of those people who definitely doesn't want you reproducing his files for absolutely anything other than personal use. Additionally, he put a lot of effort into the creation of these files and he doesn't want them altered. In Paul's Terms and Conditions he states:

• Modifying or altering the files is not permitted unless for personal fitting of the costume parts (e.g. scaling or expanding parts to fit your body size and shape).
• The files are not to be printed and made in to moulds for reproduction.

But Paul's not alone; this verbiage is very common amongst designers. That's why for me personally, I don't even bother with it. However, there are several designers who openly welcome this type of work. I actually have licensing agreements with a few designers to mold and cast their accessories. A lot of the time, if you reach out to someone, they'll be willing to work with you.

 

7 hours ago, gwf2683 said:

Am I going in the right direction, or causing more harm that good? I dropped the neckline some, pulled the pecs up, and tried to adjust the angles on the pecs to better match the reference.

 

7 hours ago, gwf2683 said:

 Your Armorsmith Avatar picture looks close. I know this is scaled to your proportions, but the sides look to be flaring out a little too much for this being in a closed position. Here's what I mean; In the reference photos, we often see the armor connected at the sides (closed) in close up shots. It's always tight to the body and almost flush with the abdominal armor. However, when the stunt actors are getting thrown about, the chest appears to be disconnected for comfort and range of movement. Here's a picture of an open chest:

 

 

But here's how it should look in most other situation:

 

 

 

And one from the side:
 

So the way these wrap around the actor's waist is one of the reasons people think the armor is made of a flexible material. However, anyone who's felt Jim Tripon's armor can attest that his does the same thing. Again, the only armor set we have definitive evidence of being made of a "rubbery" material is the new Boba Fett kit as well as some evidence suggesting the FOTKs were as well. Here's a little thread from 2016.

I've seen a few pictures of Cod armor bent in all kinds of weird ways and plenty of shots of ROTKs and FOTKs sitting down. Anyone who's tried to sit in standard ABS or fiberglass butt armor can tell you this isn't an easy task. However, so far, there's not anything definitive suggesting the ROTK armor was completely flexible. We've also seen it up close at multiple cons/ expos. 

 

7 hours ago, gwf2683 said:

Just a note on the material I planned to use (If given permission from the file creators to cast for personal use).  Although it does have a high elasticity, it is still a hard polyurethane plastic with the same shore hardness as a skateboard wheel or golfball.  It just doesnt snap if bent.

I'm very familiar with most of these products. If someone were to create a complete set of armor similar to this, it would be great. But, just for your reference, here's me flexing my Jimiroquai kit:

Jimi's is backed with fiberglass, but other than that, he's using something very similar.

 

7 hours ago, gwf2683 said:

On a side note.  Thoughts on a "just for fun" Obi Wan series Purge Trooper build?  I saw that a few people have made the 3D files for it.  I am assuming based on the Black Series action figure.

I'm a member of a Purge Trooper 2.0 build group and would encourage you to join one if you're interested in this costume. Currently, we're using the figure as a back-up reference, but there's other stuff that's been made available recently, as well as some valuable insight from the actor himself. I haven't checked in a while, so I'm not sure which Detachment will get this costume. The easy answer is the Clone Detachment, but I'd lean more towards this being a Spec Ops build. 

 

Finally, I know this picture is of the rear of the armor, but here's a screen used abdominal for your reference. In this pic, notice the difference in height from front to rear and how it swoops under the armpits:

 

 

And while I'm throwing reference photos up here, look at the return edge under the chest armor. Just saying...

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by BigJasoni

[gwf2683]

So change in direction.  I decided to take a shot at just modeling my own abs in Fusion360, and then using Blender to scult in the more organic curvature.  This way it will make it a lot easier to make adjustments and corrections to the model as necessary.  This makes it easier to split the abs up into printable pieces, where I can build in registration for putting it all together.  I can then model the belt, ab boxes, etc straight off the abs to make sure everything works together well.  This is the first pass at the model for the abs. 

 

 

Started working on the chest plate as well.  Still a work in progress.

 

Question on the belt: How tall is it?  In some photos the belt seems larger than others.  In trying to figure it out I went so far as to hold up a ruler to the screen and try to measure the belt in comparison to the ab boxes.  Using this highly technical process, it seems to be that the height of the belt (not counting teeth) seems to be pretty close to the height of the center ab box.  Is that close?

Edited August 31, 2022 by gwf2683