New ANTHOLOGY TK Crl

[BigJasoni[TK]]

36 minutes ago, careems23b said:

I would love to see Remanent storm trooper crl in the works I've took one of my spare New Hope helmets and made it into A Remanent helmet

Michael,
That looks great. I'm going to start working on my kit.

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

8 hours ago, TheRascalKing said:

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO this thread has been all over the place, but I'd like to get this conversation started back up now that we've seen the same "Remnant" Stormtroopers in Season 1 and Season 2 and multiple toys under that name. The Pathfinders Detachment has also set precedent with their new Mandalorian Scout CRL. 

 

If someone makes it, will a Remnant Stormtrooper be given strong consideration for a new CRL? I believe there is enough reference to warrant it. 

 

If not, can the SE-14R be added as an optional blaster for the Rogue One CRL? And should it be updated to include clean white TK's from Solo, The Mandalorian, and upcoming properties, perhaps under a renamed "New Generation" or "Non-Saga" Stormtrooper CRL?

 

Let's get some answers/guidance from leadership and let's get this moving!

 

What would be different?

 

- ANH TK helmet (optional?)

- specific (non-Sandy) weathering

- Thermal Detonator (optional?)

- SE-14R or RO E-11 optional

What else...?

There where quite a few differences with the Mandalorian bikerscout hence the need for a new CRL.

 

A good question for you @Sly11

[Sly11[Admin]]

Indeed a few things to consider with this.

1. If they are different in several ways from the R1 TK, armour wise not just their carry, then it is worth looking closely at.

If R1 TK's were not seen on screen carrying the SE-14R then I would not be  inclined to just add that to the R1 CRL, it's just not the sort of thing we do nor other detachments I think.

Talking about the subject is great, but adding side by side comparison images is what helps sell the idea to the staff and membership. Be prepared to have LMO intervention as well. They have a larger team this year and intend to be more active in looking at CRL development, specially new to legion CRL's.

I'm not one to never say never so lets see a compelling case and someone willing to build the costume accurate.

If I did have a concern that would be the fact we have seen variation with the TK's in Mandalorion, different helmets is the main stand out. That will be the tough argument as to which is the correct helmet to use, as i dont think having 2 or more CRL's for the one character is a good idea or would actually happen.

Weapons as accessories if seen on screen is one thing, adding helmet variations as optional accessories, I don't think I could get onboard with that.

 

[JasonG]

Following. I think the fact they are wearing a mixture of armor or buckets both OT and R1 is interesting. You basically can't take a straight R1 and make a remnant kit with it. Great discussion!

[BigJasoni[TK]]

On 4/17/2021 at 2:03 AM, Sly11 said:

If I did have a concern that would be the fact we have seen variation with the TK's in Mandalorion, different helmets is the main stand out. That will be the tough argument as to which is the correct helmet to use, as i dont think having 2 or more CRL's for the one character is a good idea or would actually happen.

@Sly11,
Thanks for adding to the conversation. When I see the two helmets on screen, immediately my thoughts turn to another costume I'm building; the ICAT Driver. When you look at the CRL, https://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:Imperial_Combat_Assault_Transport_Driver#Version One you see "Version 1" and "Version 2." Version 1, Lieutenant, has the weathered, olive grey biceps, and Version 2, Commander, has the red bicep armor.
Now, with there being a large number of alternatives one could put together, i.e. thermal detonator or no TD, I would be a proponent of holding some of these elements specific to one of those versions, i.e. version 1 has OT helmet and no TD. Version 2 has heavily weathered New Generation Stormtrooper helmet with a TD.
 

On 4/17/2021 at 2:03 AM, Sly11 said:

If R1 TK's were not seen on screen carrying the SE-14R then I would not be  inclined to just add that to the R1 CRL, it's just not the sort of thing we do nor other detachments I think.

I agree. If it wasn't seen on screen in Rogue One, than the ROTK shouldn't carry it. However, this is where I fall in line with this costume being called the New Generation TK or Anthology TK. We've now seen this costume in use in Solo, Two Seasons of The Mandalorian, and my gut feeling is that we're going to receive a lot of it in The Book of Boba Fett, Kenobi, Ahsoka, Andor, and whatever else Lucasfilm blesses us with. 
I am in the middle of another ROTK build, but I'm not sure I want to dirty  it up for a maybe. However, it would be a lot of fun, and I do love The Mandalorian. I'd gladly weather up the 3D print TK, but I think I'd rather see a Jimmiroquai kit used for the model.

 

On 4/17/2021 at 2:03 AM, Sly11 said:

Talking about the subject is great, but adding side by side comparison images is what helps sell the idea to the staff and membership.

I'm on it.

[TK 14166[TK]]

Let’s not forget either that the ROTK style troopers are carrying E-22’s on the chapter titled “The Duchess.”

And the StormTrooper Commander wearing the OT orange pauldron in chapter 14 “the tragedy.”

[BigJasoni[TK]]

1 hour ago, TK 14166 said:

Let’s not forget either that the ROTK style troopers are carrying E-22’s on the chapter titled “The Duchess.”

And the StormTrooper Commander wearing the OT orange pauldron in chapter 14 “the tragedy.”

Matt,
Good catch on both. Not sure if you saw our continued conversation over at the FISD Facebook page today or not, but I posted a few screenshots from The Dutchess. Love it.

So, I had an awesome post going and unfortunately I closed the page or something. So, I will provide my "analysis" of the Remnants and New Generation/ Anthology TKs tomorrow. Until then, I leave you with this:

Good night.

[BigJasoni[TK]]

I think it's fair to recap the discussion before I jump straight in to the good stuff.

 

@Parquetteinitiated this conversation back in November 2019 with a simple idea: "I would like to propose a new CRL specifically for the Mandalorian TK."

 

Reese did a good job in the initial post of pointing out the new series' use of both the ROTK costume, or "Anthology" as it's sometimes referred to, as well as a hybrid version consisting of ROTK armor and the OT helmet. This character, we have since learned, is referred to in the series and Disney marketing as the "Remnant Stormtrooper." Additionally, Reese drew comparisons to the FISD's use of multiple CRLs for OT costumes which have seemingly few differences. This initial post appeared to gain adequate interest early on, likely throughout the run of the first season, then lost a little steam. I attempted to resurrect the thread in September 2020, but like several other posts, it went off the rails a little and then fizzled out.

 

Last week, @TheRascalKingasked a fun little question on the FISD FB page about "getting the SE-14R added as an optional blaster" for the ROTK costume. Justin prefaced this question by stating the popular opinion is that the costume presumably "isn't different enough from the Rogue One CRL to warrant its own," but then questioned that thought. We carried the discussion back over here in order to facilitate a back-and-forth in the appropriate forum, but after @Sly11 suggested providing side-by-side comparisons of the costumes, I felt it was about time to start busting out the screen shots I've been collecting and "hoarding" for the last year.    

 

Here we go...

 

First, I want to preface everything with the understanding that costume designers probably don't expect people to look at things frame-by-frame and pic their work apart. That's not the intent here. Yes, it's possible that a lot of these things i.e. TKs in gray boots (Chapter 15), were thrown on the actors because it was what the department had on hand. Hence the terms stunt and hero. Many of these things were likely items that were expected to remain in the background; that's why I only try to point out things that are either "front and center" or used multiple times.

 

Andrew laid out a few criterion for the costume to receive a closer look: 1. They should be different in several ways from the R1 TK, not just in carry. 2. If the SE-14R wasn't seen on screen in Rogue One, then it shouldn't be added to the CRL (which can be presumed for any weapon). 3. Add side-by-side images to help the staff make a determination.

 

With those ideas laid out, I would like to officially second @Parquette's 'motion' to add a CRL for the Remnant Stormtrooper, but also introduce the idea of either renaming the ROTK costume to reflect its greater usage in the Star Wars universe, or add an additional CRL for the New Generation Stormtrooper. In this post, I intend to show how the Remnant is an entirely different costume than the ROTK. I will cover the New Generation/ Anthology at another time.

 

I used the Pathfinder Detachment's inclusion of the Scout Trooper: The Mandalorian CRL, as justification for the addition of the Remnant Stormtrooper CRL. I would like to point out all the differences they discovered to show the similarities in what we're doing, but this post will be long enough without that. If anyone wants to look at this, I encourage you to view their CRL drafting thread found here: http://forum.501stpathfinders.com/index.php?/topic/21087-tb-scout-trooper-the-mandalorian-crl-drafting/ Yes, there are differences, but most are details such as weathering and wear, or the inclusion/ exclusion of parts such as a neck seal, different flight suit, vest and boots. The Remnant TK is very similar in that regard. I will point out the major differences, but since this should be a "crowd sourced" effort, I would like to ask others to join in as they identify other nuances.

 

Remnant Stormtrooper:

Let's identify what a Remnant Stormtrooper is. This will help to distinguish between the heavily weathered Remnants seen in service of The Client through season 1, those found on planet Morak in Chapter 15, "The Believer" and the clean shiny white TKs scattered throughout the two seasons working with Moff Gideon, and those potentially in the service of Grand Admiral Thrawn. One could argue this last point since canon has shown us the oft rocky relationship Thrawn has with his political peers. Whether Moff Gideon and Thrawn are allies remains to be seen, but I digress. However, Ahsoka name-dropping Thrawn in Chapter 13 "The Jedi" leads us down this path. The show has presented a distinct difference between the rag-tag Remnants and the more organized forces, but regardless, they're all Remnant Stormtroopers.

Wookiepeedia breaks down several Remnant elements presented in both canon and legends. This info can be found here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_remnants Since all TKs remaining after the Battle of Endor are essentially Remnants, a new CRL would have to delineate which ones we're specifically talking about. But since the term remnant has been used both in the show, and in licensed products, the term Remnant Stormtrooper should be easy to distinguish. 

 

I've mentioned it previously, but toys are typically a good indication of LFL motives. To understand this, one should browse through the Lucasfilm/ Hasbro license which is neatly outlined here: https://www.jeditemplearchives.com/2018-09-16-the-cost-of-hasbros-star-wars-license/ Of particular note, one requirement for Hasbro prior to releasing toys, is that Disney/ Lucasfilm needs to approve everything. So, when Hasbro released BOTH an Imperial Stormtrooper and a Remnant Stormtrooper as part of their Mandalorian Black Series line, this followed Disney/ Lucasfilm approval of the characters and naming.

 

FOR THE REMAINDER OF THIS POST, THE TERM REMNANT OR REMNANT STORMTROOPER ONLY REFERS TO THE HEAVILY WEATHERED VERSION AS SEEN IN THE BELOW PICTURES.

 

First the toys:

 

As a reminder, we've seen CRLs approved off of less:

 

So, with it established that Remnant Stormtroopers are a real thing, we have to turn our attention to the differences not only as they appear on the approved figures, but more importantly, in their on screen usage. Again, as was the case in developing the Scout Trooper: Mandalorian CRL, there's likely several other pieces that aren't immediately noticeable and we need the community's assistance in finding the finer details. These are some of the bigger items that immediately jump out. Credit for these pictures go to their respective photographer.

 

Overall Appearance & Weathering. ROTK and Remnant:

 

 

 

The Helmet:

 

First, for safe measure, please refer to @11b30b4's post for a OT vs. ROTK comparison: https://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/48617-rogue-one-tk-vs-ot-tk-comparison/ Here's a few pics from Jeff's analysis of the two costumes:

 

 

Now for the remnant comparison:

 

 

 

Missing/ Broken Parts:
 

Of course, there's scenes in Rogue One where the Stormtrooper's TD came off, but the Mandalorian was the first Star Wars production that clearly showed a TK using thermal detonators as a weapon.

 

 

Additionally, there's multiple TKs with the same parts missing:

 

 

Look at the wear on the rear belt. Unless this trooper sustained additional damage following the previous picture, this is a different TK with the same part missing.

 

 

Drop Boxes, a major element of every TK belt. Missing Drop Boxes were seen on multiple troopers in season 1.

 

Boots:

 

Again, the costume designers likely used what they had on hand, but basic approval for ROTK states: "Boots are above ankle height and the same style as the First Order TK. Chelsea type boots in the style of OT TK are not acceptable." If not for the portion in bold, I would overlook this scene, however, the heeled Chelsea boots worn by the Remnant in the above picture stands as a big element. 

Accessories:

 

The Mandalorian has shown the Remnant in possession of several weapons unused by TKs in the past. Most notably are the SE-14R and the E-22 blaster:

 

 

As I stated in a previous post, I agree that if the weapon was not used by the trooper in production, then it shouldn't be carried as an optional costume accessory. But, if this is deemed to not warrant a separate CRL, we now have examples of the ROTK carrying these weapons on screen. I desperately want to carry a SE-14R and E-22 in my ROTK costume, but won't until it's approved to do so. However, that may come with a renaming of the New Generation costume. I'll cover that in my next post.

I did this post just to get the ball rolling. These are some of the major items I've noticed, but when others jump in, I'm sure we'll start finding more.

[TheRascalKing[TK]]

1 hour ago, BigJasoni said:

I did this post just to get the ball rolling. These are some of the major items I've noticed, but when others jump in, I'm sure we'll start finding more.

 

OUTSTANDING post, Jason and very much appreciated.

 

Your info and pics make the picture very clear, so mostly to recap: "Remnant" Troopers are distinctly different than any New Era stormtroopers we have otherwise seen in any of the new properties, and are acknowledged by LFL as such through licensed merchandising. Is it a DRASTIC difference from the standard, cleanwhite New Era Stormtrooper? No. But is IS clearly and consistently different. And should be accounted for in a CRL somehow, once someone builds one. I don't know how this process formally works, but we would propose a new Mandalorian "Remnant Stormtrooper" be created.

 

However, suits which should be noted that are NOT substantively different are the "Rogue One"-style suits from Solo and the Mandalorian thusfar, and I think it is extremely likely that we will see this same style armor as the standard depiction of OT-era stormtroopers moving forward in all LFL productions. ANH is VHS, New Era is 4K BluRay.

 

These suits also need to be accounted for - and I would second Jason and strongly suggest/propose doing so by renaming the Rogue One CRL something like "Non-Saga", "New Era", or "New Generation" Stormtrooper to include these other properties, as the IOC did to cover Staff Officer costumes from these properties with their Non-Saga Staff Officer CRL update. I believe the only change to the CRL (other than the name) would be adding optional accessories from the other properties (SE-14R and E-22 blasters to start, as there is clear reference).

 

We believe there is enough reference material to support these proposals and people willing to create the new Remnant costume and separate CRL. So what else do we need? Let's make this happen, @Sly11!

 

 

*Another note - the weathering on the Remnant is distinctly different than those for Sandtroopers - notably the black chipping seen. Also, no backpacks. MEPD can't have it  

Edited April 22, 2021 by TheRascalKing

[BigJasoni[TK]]

14 minutes ago, TheRascalKing said:

However, suits which should be noted that are NOT substantively different are the "Rogue One"-style suits from Solo and the Mandalorian thusfar, and I think it is extremely likely that we will see this same style armor as the standard depiction of OT-era stormtroopers moving forward in all LFL productions. ANH is VHS, New Era is 4K BluRay

Thanks Justin. I will cover Solo tomorrow, but I can get people's gears turning now...

 

Is it still a Jedha Patrol Trooper or Crystal Patrol Duty Trooper if they're not patrolling Jedha or on Crystal Patrol Duty???? That may be a case for the MEPD...Just saying.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by BigJasoni
Added MEPD

[Sly11[Admin]]

7 hours ago, BigJasoni said:

I

 

As a reminder, we've seen CRLs approved off of less:

 

 

 

 

This should never have happened in the first place.

It goes against our own mandates on what is usable as an accurate reference for a CRL, it was never seen on screen and as far as I am aware, has never been seen in Galaxies edge as a live action costume.

The LMO team will not entertain Black series figures as a single point reference in creating a new to legion CRL moving forward.

Even a Hot Toys which have a very high level of detail in comparison, would not be usable as a single point resource.

Screen captures are our best option always, as I know you guys are aware so if we don't have an image, then the Black series wont form part of the consideration.

It's always been tough with artists impressions for other costumes new to the universe, and these are generally supported by reasonable to highly detailed descriptions in novels etc so using Black series is an absolute last resort and will be a very tough sell to the LMO team in general.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

True.  Wish it was retroactive so we can see the end of the RP...

[11b30b4[TK]]

I will add my thoughts to this discussion.

 

First, I have always believed that the Rogue One TK should have been named the Anthology TK. When we first got wind of Rogue One it was promoted as a Star Wars Anthology. Later it changed to A Star Wars Story, but the term Anthology seems most correct.

 

From Merriam-Webster

anthology noun

an·thol·o·gy | \ an-ˈthä-lə-jē  \

plural anthologies

Definition of anthology

1: a collection of selected literary pieces or passages or works of art or music

//an anthology of American poetry

2: ASSORTMENT

//… an anthology of threadbare clichés of … bistro cuisine …

— Jay Jacobs

First Known Use of anthology

1624, in the meaning defined at sense 1

 

History and Etymology for anthology

borrowed from French & New Latin; French anthologie, going back to Middle French, borrowed from New Latin anthologia, borrowed from Greek anthología "gathering of flowers," from anthológos "flower-gathering" (from antho- ANTHO- + -logos, nominal ablaut derivative of légein "to gather, collect") + -ia -IA entry 1 — more at LEGEND

 

NOTE: The sense "collection of extracts" is found earlier in the parallel formation anthológion, attested in Byzantine Greek.

 

Because Rogue One and Solo are stories that take place in the Star Wars universe but are not part of the traditional saga films, they are by definition, anthologies. Even if LFL does not use this term, it is correct and should be what we call all costumes from these films.

 

Second, references:

Yes, screen captures are a solid reference; however, I also believe “Cannon” reference material such as the Visual Guides should carry the same weight as references. more often than not, the images are of higher quality and are staged to capture more detail. In the case of the Rogue One Ultimate Visual Guide, the author Pablo Hidalgo and information he provides should be considered gospel. Afterall:

“After The Walt Disney Company acquired Lucasfilm, Hidalgo was assigned a job within the still newly formed Lucasfilm Story Group, a small group of Star Wars experts whose main purpose is to create and maintain one cohesive canon, thereby eliminating the previous hierarchical canon. Hidalgo is currently a creative executive in story development at Lucasfilm, as well as one of the members of the Intellectual Property Development Group. He is well known for writing the reference books that accompany the release of new movies.”

 

So, this is my feelings on the Rogue One TK.

 

On the issue of the Remnant TK (RTK), all of you have done a great job describing the differences between the ROTKs and the Remnant TKs. My perspective on this is that JF and DF were given access to the what LFL had on had for the costumes. This most likely was the reason we see RO armor with OT helmets. We also know that the Black Series helmet was widely used in the Mandalorian series. This mismatch of armor and helmets is most likely due to what was available and not an intentional desire to establish a new costume. The weather was intentional and intended to present a distressed appearance contributing to overall feeling of the collapse of the Empire.

 

I really do not have a dog in this fight since I will not be building a RTK; however, I do see the value of establishing a separate CRL for this costume. The real challenge will be in deciding what is Level 1 and what is EIB and Centurion level kits for this CRL.

 

I spent a lot of time tackling the ROTK CRL update and still opted to omit a few things for the EIB and Centurion levels because they were just not practical for members to do. The example I like to provide for this is the peg holes in the soles of the boots on the ROTK. We can clearly see these homage easter eggs design elements in screen captures but asking 501^st members to replicate this detail was not realistic. In the end, opted for the 30-20-10 foot approach. Level 1 would look correct at 30 feet, EIB at 20 feet, and centurion at 10 feet. This made the CRL achievable for most people and provided enough detail for the costumes to be Rogue One specific.

 

We all know that the OT CRLs are quite specific and go as far as determining what types of strapping and rivets are used. From what I have learned, this is primarily due to the level of references available to the CRL developers over the years. Yes, we have had a lot of additional references since the release of Rogue One but we (or at least I) have also tried to remain focused on what you can see about the armor and not get into the weeds with how the armor is assembled. If we were to take a purest approach to the ROTK like the OT CRLs, then all the ROTK armor should be made from the same materials used for the screen kits and made in the same process. Again, this is would be extremely difficult for the most skilled 501^st members and near impossible for the majority of us. Like I previously said, my goal for the ROTK CRL was to correct a few inaccuracies and develop a CRL that was approachable to most members. I would recommend this approach for the RTK CRL if it is to be developed.

 

[BigJasoni[TK]]

11 hours ago, Sly11 said:

19 hours ago, BigJasoni said:

 

As a reminder, we've seen CRLs approved off of less:

 

 

 

 

Expand  

This should never have happened in the first place.

I agree 100%. This should not have happened.
The reason I bring up the Black Series figures is to show Disney/ Lucasfilm intent through their marketing/ merchandising. What was explained to me is that they intended to put Mountain Troopers in Galaxy's Edge, but haven't as of yet. However, Lucasfilm blessed off on the character itself as a Hasbro Galaxy's Edge exclusive (that later found its way to Target). Additionally, I just read that the character was mentioned in Pablo Hidalgo's "The Star Wars Book"??? I don't have the book, so someone will have to confirm this for me.

Regardless, the character now lives as a genuine member of the First Order. Though I love the costume and the Pathfinders,  I agree that it should never have found its way into the databank or detachment. Ultimately, Lucasfilm intended for it to exist as a stand alone character. I assume the same is true for the Remnant Stormtrooper.

 

1 hour ago, 11b30b4 said:

Yes, screen captures are a solid reference; however, I also believe “Cannon” reference material such as the Visual Guides should carry the same weight as references. more often than not, the images are of higher quality and are staged to capture more detail. In the case of the Rogue One Ultimate Visual Guide, the author Pablo Hidalgo and information he provides should be considered gospel. Afterall:

“After The Walt Disney Company acquired Lucasfilm, Hidalgo was assigned a job within the still newly formed Lucasfilm Story Group, a small group of Star Wars experts whose main purpose is to create and maintain one cohesive canon, thereby eliminating the previous hierarchical canon. Hidalgo is currently a creative executive in story development at Lucasfilm, as well as one of the members of the Intellectual Property Development Group. He is well known for writing the reference books that accompany the release of new movies.”

Thanks Jeff. Curious if anyone here was able to grab The Mandalorian: The Ultimate Visual Guide before they pulled it off the shelves? That was another Pablo Hidalgo creation and I'm wondering if they did anything on the Stormtroopers in there.

 

4 hours ago, 11b30b4 said:

On the issue of the Remnant TK (RTK), all of you have done a great job describing the differences between the ROTKs and the Remnant TKs. My perspective on this is that JF and DF were given access to the what LFL had on had for the costumes. This most likely was the reason we see RO armor with OT helmets

I also agree with your assessment here. I didn't put this pic up, but I did find it funny that in season 2 (Chapter 15) that they reintroduced the Remnants, but also had a few shiny guys (ROTK) mixed in. But, rather than scatter the ROTKs throughout the crowd, they had them standing off to the side in a pseudo "formation" kind of talking amongst themselves while everyone else flailed about celebrating.

 

 

If it were this pic alone that told the story, I think it says a lot, but again, I imagine it's simply the producers doing what they could, with what they had. It will be interesting to see what they do with the seemingly unlimited resources they've been given for season 3. 

 

4 hours ago, 11b30b4 said:

I really do not have a dog in this fight since I will not be building a RTK; however, I do see the value of establishing a separate CRL for this costume. The real challenge will be in deciding what is Level 1 and what is EIB and Centurion level kits for this CRL.

 

This question came up during the draft of the Scout CRL. Detachment staff decided to forgo higher level requirements for a year. This gives the community additional opportunities to find additional information pertaining to the costume. For a heavily weathered trooper, I agree that identifying EIB and Centurion requirements would be challenging, but I also don't think we should deviate from what's been established in the current CRL. I know I've said this before, but I really appreciate the great work you did on it.

[Sly11[Admin]]

I cant see an issue with updating the title of the R1 CRL, however, as with all our costumes we have used the film title as the easiest and most recognizable prospect for everyone old and new to understand.

This means I would not be in favor of removing the Rogue One form the title but happy to add maybe something like  (Anthology) in the title, that should give it sufficient separation or understanding for those inclined.

 

Originally FISD was simply for Shiny white TK's, this is why there has not been a CRL created for the Endor variant of trooper from ROTJ. yes there has been discussion over the years but no one prepared to make the costume.

As others have mentioned, it still takes a member to want to put in the hard work to co write the CRL and build the costume complete with reference images.

First step, have minimum 4 reference images (front, back , left and right side) This is a minimum for the LMO's to entertain a new to legion CRL. Then you need a list of descriptions that differentiate the costume from an already existing one. Seems to be more mixing and matching going on with hard armour than with a soft costume making it a little more difficult for someone to build without decent modification.  Princess seams are comparatively easy as opposed building hard armour lol.

You guys want this to happen, put the cases forward separately so I can start dialogue with the LMO team.

Trust me its easier to start here than to build a costume then try and get them onside to have it as an approved item. There are more of them now which means more scrutiny at basic level so be prepared.

 

[TheRascalKing[TK]]

Sorry, back to make some more trouble...

 

On 4/24/2021 at 8:17 PM, Sly11 said:

I cant see an issue with updating the title of the R1 CRL, however, as with all our costumes we have used the film title as the easiest and most recognizable prospect for everyone old and new to understand.

This means I would not be in favor of removing the Rogue One form the title but happy to add maybe something like  (Anthology) in the title, that should give it sufficient separation or understanding for those inclined.

 

Super. I totally understand that, but other detachments have set the example of not requiring a specific film in their CRL titles. I think "/Anthology, "/New Generation", or "/Non-Saga" amended to Rogue One are among the most popular suggestions for an alternative. What do we need to do to get that going? Shall we start a poll and let membership vote on the name change before submitting to the LMOs for approval? Let's make it happen!

 

On 4/24/2021 at 8:17 PM, Sly11 said:

Originally FISD was simply for Shiny white TK's, this is why there has not been a CRL created for the Endor variant of trooper from ROTJ. yes there has been discussion over the years but no one prepared to make the costume.

As others have mentioned, it still takes a member to want to put in the hard work to co write the CRL and build the costume complete with reference images.

 

Originally, but we've grown! Not being "shiny white" is a different reasoning than "no one is prepared to make the costume". We have folks prepared to make the costume, but who are understandably hesitant considering the uncertainty of an approvable CRL moving forward.

I would argue that the "Remnant Stormtrooper" belongs to FISD, on the documentation from LFL alone - it's a "Remnant STORMTROOPER", not "Sandtrooper". The weathering is distinctly different from previously seen Sandtroopers (the black chipping alone), and none have been seen with backpacks (I'd argue Jedha Patrol is a different scenario). There should be sufficient documentation of the angles, if not in their entirety, enough to piece together a full view of the costume. As previously mentioned, we've seen CRLs approved on less.

 

On 4/24/2021 at 8:17 PM, Sly11 said:

 

First step, have minimum 4 reference images (front, back , left and right side) This is a minimum for the LMO's to entertain a new to legion CRL. Then you need a list of descriptions that differentiate the costume from an already existing one. Seems to be more mixing and matching going on with hard armour than with a soft costume making it a little more difficult for someone to build without decent modification.  Princess seams are comparatively easy as opposed building hard armour lol.

 

You guys want this to happen, put the cases forward separately so I can start dialogue with the LMO team.

Trust me its easier to start here than to build a costume then try and get them onside to have it as an approved item. There are more of them now which means more scrutiny at basic level so be prepared.

 

One of us will plan to submit a more formal post in the near future (hopefully with additional input from @BigJasoni, @11b30b4, and some other key stakeholders), to show with certainty that the same armor has been used across multiple properties, warranting amendment of the "Rogue One Stormtrooper" CRL to an updated title, as well as the various required angles and differences for a NEW Remnant CRL to be developed, and once tentative approval is achieved, someone will move forward with building and submitting an example of the costume.

 

Let's keep this going!

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Descriptions 

 

starwars.com

STORMTROOPERS
Stormtroopers are elite shock troops fanatically loyal to the Empire and impossible to sway from the Imperial cause. They wear imposing white armor, which offers a wide range of survival equipment and temperature controls to allow the soldiers to survive in almost any environment. Stormtroopers wield blaster rifles and pistols with great skill, and attack in hordes to overwhelm their enemies. Along with standard stormtroopers, the Empire has organized several specialized units, including snowtroopers and scout troopers.

 

Star Wars: A New Hope, Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, Solo: A Star Wars Story, Star Wars Rebels, The Mandalorian

 

THE NEW REPUBLIC

Remnant Stormtroopers: In the aftermath of the Battle of Endor, the Empire is in disarray. Fragments of the former regime have gained footholds on distant worlds, trying to cling to what power they have.

 

 

Wookieepedia

Stormtroopers, nicknamed "bucketheads" and also known as Remnant Stormtroopers after the Battle of Endor, were the infantry soldiers of the Galactic Empire. The members of the Imperial Army's Stormtrooper Corps served on the frontline as elite shock troops, and their loyalty to the Empire was absolute as a result of their training.

 

The stormtrooper armor that they wore consisted of white plastoid plates over a black body glove, and their standard weapon was the E-11 blaster rifle. In addition to the standard trooper, various specialized units such as scout troopers and snowtroopers comprised the ranks of the Stormtrooper Corps.

 

Stormtroopers served the Empire since its inception at the end of the Clone Wars when the Sith Lord Darth Sidious declared himself Galactic Emperor. The Galactic Republic was supplanted by the Empire, and the clone troopers who formed the backbone of the Grand Army of the Republic became the first generation of Imperial stormtroopers. During the early years of the Imperial Era, the cloning operation on Kamino was shut down as the Empire turned to conscription and recruitment in order to fill the stormtrooper ranks. The remaining clones were retired from service due to their rapid aging, their legacy inherited by natural-born humans who were also trained to render total allegiance to the Emperor and his New Order.

 

Stormtroopers were spread throughout the galaxy during the Emperor's reign, from the Imperial capital of Coruscant in the Core Worlds, to occupied planets such as Lothal and Tatooine in the Outer Rim Territories. They fought many battles against the forces of the Alliance to Restore the Republic during the Galactic Civil War, including the Battle of Scarif, the Battle of Hoth, and the Battle of Endor. Shortly before the Battle of Yavin, Princess Leia Organa was captured by stormtroopers who served under Darth Vader, the Emperor's Sith apprentice. However, Organa was rescued by Luke Skywalker and Han Solo who, disguised as stormtroopers, infiltrated the first Death Star. The Emperor stationed a legion of stormtroopers on Endor to protect the shield generator of the second Death Star, although they were defeated by the Alliance's Ewok allies.

 

With the Emperor's death, Counselor to the Empire Gallius Rax took control of the Imperial loyalist forces which rallied to his homeworld of Jakku to make a final stand against the New Republic. After losing the Battle of Jakku, the Empire signed the Imperial Instruments of Surrender and the Galactic Concordance, and its stormtrooper forces were consequently demobilized as part of the New Republic's terms for peace. Despite this, a number of Imperial remnants continued to make use of stormtroopers as soldiers or mercenaries in the Outer Rim, including Moff Gideon's faction as well as the remnants on Morak

 

[BigJasoni[TK]]

On 5/21/2021 at 6:37 PM, TheRascalKing said:

One of us will plan to submit a more formal post in the near future (hopefully with additional input from @BigJasoni, @11b30b4, and some other key stakeholders), to show with certainty that the same armor has been used across multiple properties, warranting amendment of the "Rogue One Stormtrooper" CRL to an updated title, as well as the various required angles and differences for a NEW Remnant CRL to be developed, and once tentative approval is achieved, someone will move forward with building and submitting an example of the costume.

Concur 100%. I've been a little disconnected from the FISD for a few weeks as I've been "cheating" with ICAT, Mudtrooper and Shoretrooper builds. However, I'm definitely ready to jump in on this again.
So nothing new, but I've mentioned several times that I think we're going to get a healthy dose of the New Generation TK armor in future Disney+ shows. I'm not sure why I didn't pick up on this previously, but I think the Andor teaser gave us a little something. First, look at this healthy stack of E-11b blasters:

 

Then there's the concept art:
Yes, it's art, but make what you will about the TKs in this picture.
Ready to get back into this conversation. 

[Sly11[Admin]]

On 5/21/2021 at 10:37 PM, TheRascalKing said:

Sorry, back to make some more trouble...

 

 

Super. I totally understand that, but other detachments have set the example of not requiring a specific film in their CRL titles. I think "/Anthology, "/New Generation", or "/Non-Saga" amended to Rogue One are among the most popular suggestions for an alternative. What do we need to do to get that going? Shall we start a poll and let membership vote on the name change before submitting to the LMOs for approval? Let's make it happen!

 

 

Originally, but we've grown! Not being "shiny white" is a different reasoning than "no one is prepared to make the costume". We have folks prepared to make the costume, but who are understandably hesitant considering the uncertainty of an approvable CRL moving forward.

I would argue that the "Remnant Stormtrooper" belongs to FISD, on the documentation from LFL alone - it's a "Remnant STORMTROOPER", not "Sandtrooper". The weathering is distinctly different from previously seen Sandtroopers (the black chipping alone), and none have been seen with backpacks (I'd argue Jedha Patrol is a different scenario). There should be sufficient documentation of the angles, if not in their entirety, enough to piece together a full view of the costume. As previously mentioned, we've seen CRLs approved on less.

 

 

 

Firstly Justin, it's no trouble lol, this is how things progress.

 

Anthology sounds like the right way to go, but the movie or show title should stay and I say this in case we start to see more variants. We already have miss-matches occurring with Anovos helmets and the R1 style bucket.

R1 approval as it currently stands is a Shiny white, so that CRL is not suitable for remnant as they are all weathered or battle damaged so no need to drop the R1 title. On these new guys howerer, they may not need to state (The Mandalorian) specifically if we are going to see the same in the following series and upcoming Andor. Those would not make sense to separate out.

We are still FISD and continue to make our own path as we have for the last 15 years. It is other detachments that have generally taken our ideas and in some cases made carbon copies of how we do things. I cant see BHG changing ESB Boba, nor RotJ Boba because there is now 3 new Boba costume variants so that is where I am coming from in this scenario. For the record, I know exactly what they are doing with the new versions as we have discussed it in the past.

 

Yes we have grown, but no one is going to make a CRL without someone building the costume, it's like putting the horse before the cart.  

For absolute clarity, I have confirmed with the LMO team on the correct order of how things work and their response is as it always has been.

References first, then costume build, then CRL is written.

If someone wants to build a particular costume, past has shown they will because they want to be the CRL model or the first in legion with that costume. We are here to support those that wish to trail blaze and write the CRL with the builder. Without the reference images or the required images for the CRL, it won't get approved so we need the costume under construction considering it is very similar to the Rogue One there already exists a base, its the weathering details and working out which helmet forms the main CRL helmet and the possibility of the alternate.

I thought I would just add this in copied directly from legion forums on CRL's

 

What is a CRL?
A CRL (Costume Reference Library) is a guide for GMLs to judge a costume. CRLs are published documents that can be updated as new or more accurate references are available. CRLs exist both in the wiki and in the Member Database, but are only entered into the latter after a member has completed a costume that is eligible for 501st inclusion. For more specific information on what our Operations Protocol has to say about CRL's, please see here.

 

The section I have underlined above is where the member/s work with the detachment to write the CRL. This is done as the build progresses where there is no existing base line. In the case of these, we already have a baseline that needs to be fleshed out suitabley to capture the nuances of the "Anthology weathered" look and capture any stand out differences. We also need to add the weapon differences as accessories for the CRL and work on what mandates level 2 and 3 from basic.

Detachments
Detachments are Legion communities that are helpful for members who wish to create a costume. CRLs do not offer advice or give specifics on on how to construct a costume. Detachments do offer guidance and support for costumers in that area. They also offer a place for like costumes to post tips and tricks or tutorials, host “Work in Progress” of other members’ costumes and ongoing information on current CRL development. A listing of Detachments, their "themes" and their contact information can be found at https://www.501st.com/resources.php. Detachment CRL building is supervised by the LMO (Legion Membership Officer).

 

 

Hope that all makes sense and shows there is no reason anyone can not start constructing armour now for a CRL, it's up to how bad you want it to how quickly it becomes a reality.
 

 

 

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

The name "Remnant" according to LFL sources comes after ROTJ and the start of the New Republic so wouldn't cover R1 or Solo.

 

Perhaps you could split some CRL's into 2 versions like other detachments do, example:

Stormtrooper: Anthology - Rogue One / Solo / Mandalorian

Version 1 - Clean

Version 2 - Weathered

 

Stormtrooper: Incinerator Mandalorian

Stormtrooper: Artillery Mandalorian

 

 

[Sly11[Admin]]

Yes, I am more on board with "Anthology" than"Remnant" and your information certainly does seem to dictate that is what they should be.

Using Mandalorian for the Incinerator and artillery also makes sense as they are definitely a standout to that show, that is unless we see them used in Andor as well.

The CRL title can always be changed to reflect differently in any event.

[BigJasoni[TK]]

16 hours ago, Sly11 said:

Anthology sounds like the right way to go, but the movie or show title should stay and I say this in case we start to see more variants.

 

@Sly11, thanks for the comments. So, if I'm understanding this correctly, Rogue One TK would remain the same. However, due to the other variants coming forward in movies and shows, "Anthology Stormtrooper" would be created as a separate CRL. The only problem I foresee is when we encounter shiny white TKs in the Anthology movies and Disney+ shows, which other than the weathered guys, is the same costume as the ROTK. Additionally, Rogue One is an Anthology Movie. This is why I was in favor of a new name and agree with Jeff's comment below.

 

On 4/23/2021 at 9:35 AM, 11b30b4 said:

First, I have always believed that the Rogue One TK should have been named the Anthology TK. When we first got wind of Rogue One it was promoted as a Star Wars Anthology. Later it changed to A Star Wars Story, but the term Anthology seems most correct.

 

Remnant Stormtroopers:

 

16 hours ago, Sly11 said:

We already have miss-matches occurring with Anovos helmets and the R1 style bucket.

 

I don't recall any instances of weathered R1 style helmets in the show. If they're out there, I couldn't find them. However, in the Mandalorian, we see two variants of TKs, which I suppose could all be called Remnants, but thus far, we haven't seen Disney/ Lucasfilm market them that way. They have intentionally referred to one as Imperial Stormtrooper and the other as Remnant. 

 

Again, figures shouldn't be used as a basis for a CRL, I use this only to illustrate the direction they've gone with marketing, product development and apparently canon reference. If someone picked up a copy of Pablo Hidalgo's "The Mandalorian, The Ultimate Visual Guide" before it was yanked off the shelves, please let us know how this was handled. Were Remnants referenced?

 

16 hours ago, Sly11 said:

On these new guys howerer, they may not need to state (The Mandalorian) specifically if we are going to see the same in the following series and upcoming Andor. Those would not make sense to separate out.

 

16 hours ago, gmrhodes13 said:

The name "Remnant" according to LFL sources comes after ROTJ and the start of the New Republic so wouldn't cover R1 or Solo.

 

Perhaps you could split some CRL's into 2 versions like other detachments do, example:

Stormtrooper: Anthology - Rogue One / Solo / Mandalorian

Version 1 - Clean

Version 2 - Weathered

 

Stormtrooper: Incinerator Mandalorian

Stormtrooper: Artillery Mandalorian

 

I agree with both of these comments entirely. Ultimately, I feel "Stormtrooper: Anthology" is sufficient. The CRL "Context" would likely read "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, Solo: A Star Wars Story, The Mandalorian: Disney+ Originals, or you can remove "The Mandalorian" and leave it as "Disney+ Originals." Also, if the remnant costumes show up in a BBY era show such as "Andor," I'm curious what they will be called.
 

16 hours ago, Sly11 said:

CRLs exist both in the wiki and in the Member Database, but are only entered into the latter after a member has completed a costume that is eligible for 501st inclusion.

 

 

Ok, so last comment. I'm willing to finish my Jimi kit and put it up for the Remnant CRL. Now, I've been doing a lot of "crazy" stuff to it in order to get it as accurate to the screen used costume as I can and my intent is to bring it up to Centurion. But, I'm supposed to be receiving an OT helmet in the near distant future and am willing to go forward with it. I'll continue building to the Centurion standard, but now thinking this could help in establishing a level 2 and 3 CRL later down the road. 

 

[11b30b4[TK]]

Where I was going with Anthology Stormtrooper was that all shinny white trooper in both Rogue One and Solos as well as any shinny trooper in the Mandalorian and other new series should all fall under the Anthology Stormtrooper as long as the armor is all the same style/ design.

 

For the mismatched armor types and the dirty troopers should fall under a new CRL called Remnant Stormtrooper. This CRL will be hard to nail down since there are several variations of mismatched armor.

 

Also keep in mind that just because it appeared in a film or show, we should not always look to incorporate it. An example of this is the unmodified Black Series helmets on pikes in season one of the Mandalorian as well as the helmets scattered in Death Star 2 in the last film.

 

Or another way to look at this would be to classify all newer Stormtroopers as Anthology similar to how was call the first three films Original trilogy and withing this Anthology classification we have specific CRLs for each film/ show if they are different. I am less concerned with clean vs dirty than I am with different armor design/ ensemble.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Sly11[Admin]]

Some really good points being made and good to see the progression.
Yes agreed R1 should gain the Anthology tag and if the Solo version are identical no reason Solo can’t be added to the title of the same CRL
When I mentioned a miss match of helmets that was from some screen grabs posted in one of the threads here showing very sharp cheek structure on the face plate so looks very much like an Anovos OT Bucket.
It would be a whole lot easier if that is actually not correct and it is just the one helmet used across all the LFL production suits in Mando.

If the shiny is the same as Solo and R1 no need for another CRL it's just part of the Anthology and we create a new CRL to support the weathered variant and perhaps it is named Remnant as has been mentioned already.



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