Early 2019 CRL update change requests

[Rat[TK]]

Grandfathered:duim: But if you want to be ”up-to-snuff” so to speak then making the changes would be your choice. 

Kind of figured this would be the case. The ears just happened to be something Tony noticed when I submitted for Centurion but not EI. I do plan on making the adjustments though.

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[TheSwede[TK]]

28 minutes ago, CableGuy said:

 

Like it.

Perhaps;

“ L1: There should be a visible gap between the brow trim and eyes.
L2: A gap of approximately 5mm to 10mm must be present between the brow trim and eyes.

 

Question: does that mean it can’t be more than 10?

[CableGuy[TK]]

Question: does that mean it can’t be more than 10?

Good question. I was thinking of a max to stop people going way high, like the move along trooper, as I’m not aware of a TK with a brow that high.

Looking back at the ref pics, this one of probably more like 15mm;



Totally open for discussion - I’ve not made any actual measurements yet, just a guess by eye. :-)

[Rat[TK]]

Now I feel the urge to measure my brow.

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[CableGuy[TK]]

Now I feel the urge to measure my brow.

 

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Haha!! :-)

 

Going back to your question, personally, I wouldn’t expect any cleared troopers to be asked to change to their brow height. They cleared based on the rules at the time. I just think that this would help maintain the iconic image of the two different ANH TK types moving forward. :-)

[Rat[TK]]

Haha!! :-)

Going back to your question, personally, I wouldn’t expect any cleared troopers to be asked to change. They cleared based on the rules at the time. I just think that this would help maintain the iconic image of the two different ANH TK types moving forward. :-)

I fully agree with that mate. My adjustments will be made entirely off suggestions from the DO staff made during my reviews. Thankfully my stripes and return edges are up to snuff now. Hahahaha!

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[Frank75139[501st]]

What if we suggested different brow heights mean different things? For example, 0-2mm, angry and menacing. 3-4mm- the TK has gastrointestinal discomfort. 5mm is meloncholy. 6-10 mm is intrigued or curious. 11mm or higher, the TK is shocked and/or surprised. ‍


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How about a slightly crooked one for the TK that spent too much time at the imperial bar last night while off duty.


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[TheSwede[TK]]

8 minutes ago, Bud Spaklur said:

What if we suggested different brow heights mean different things? For example, 0-2mm, angry and menacing. 3-4mm- the TK has gastrointestinal discomfort. 5mm is meloncholy. 6-10 mm is intrigued or curious. 11mm or higher, the TK is shocked and/or surprised. ‍


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7 minutes ago, Frank75139 said:

 

 

How about a slightly crooked one for the TK that spent too much time at the imperial bar last night while off duty.


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6 minutes ago, Bud Spaklur said:

By the way, I got a low brow and am proud of it! I’m going to start an interest thread for a T-shirt that says , “Low-browed TKs are people too!”

 

 

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[Harbinger[IPM]]

13 hours ago, justjoseph63 said:

In order to eliminate any ambiguity and make things clearer for those headed for Centurion, I am proposing the following changes to the CRLs for ANH Stunt and ANH Hero for level 3.  I realize that there were small variations in the films, but I believe these follow the general overall look.

 

1.  Ears shall be tilted back at an angle to where the screws align closely with the rear angle of the trap located above the rear of the brow.

 

 

2.  Tube stripes are positioned no more than approximately 7/16ths (1 cm) from the cheek, (a standard pencil width).

 

 

3.  Top section of posterior armor shall be in line with the bottom portion of the kidney plate.

 

   

 

4.  Posterior snaps/cod rivet shall not be painted.

 

 

5.  Minimal (or no) gap is permitted between the  top of the shoulder bell and the shoulder bridge.

 

 

6.  All abdomen buttons are integrated and painted directly on the armor.  No separate/added buttons are permitted.

 

     

 

7.  D-ring on end cap shall be of a similar shape/size to the original Sterling type.

 

   

 

8.  3D printed weapons must be free of noticeable print lines.

 

Almost all of these are already being asked of applicants so I don't see why we can't start adding them - officially - to the CRLs (for Centurion I assume?).

[wook1138[TK]]

FISD:

come for the detailed analysis and critiques of TK armour...

stay for Matt's and Frank's banter. 

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

13 hours ago, justjoseph63 said:

In order to eliminate any ambiguity and make things clearer for those headed for Centurion, I am proposing the following changes to the CRLs for ANH Stunt and ANH Hero for level 3.  I realize that there were small variations in the films, but I believe these follow the general overall look.

 

1.  Ears shall be tilted back at an angle to where the screws align closely with the rear angle of the trap located above the rear of the brow.

 

 

2.  Tube stripes are positioned no more than approximately 7/16ths (1 cm) from the cheek, (a standard pencil width).

 

 

3.  Top section of posterior armor shall be in line with the bottom portion of the kidney plate.

 

   

 

4.  Posterior snaps/cod rivet shall not be painted.

 

 

5.  Minimal (or no) gap is permitted between the  top of the shoulder bell and the shoulder bridge.

 

 

6.  All abdomen buttons are integrated and painted directly on the armor.  No separate/added buttons are permitted.

 

     

 

7.  D-ring on end cap shall be of a similar shape/size to the original Sterling type.

 

   

 

8.  3D printed weapons must be free of noticeable print lines.

 

I like most of these but the there are a couple that concern me, one is the ear angle, many struggle with assembly of ears on helmets so this may not be achievable for some. I wonder what happens if you can't get this angle this from a certain make of helmet as it's just not obtainable due to how the helmets are moulded, would you have to buy a replacement from another maker? Would it be feasible to research the majority of helmet makes to see how many could achieve this? Or could just change the wording to

1.  Ideally ears shall be tilted back at an angle to where the screws align closely with the rear angle of the trap located above the rear of the brow.

 

Secondly the shoulder bell gap, some makes have smaller shoulder bells than others, having little to no gap just isn't obtainable but most troopers seen on screen have no gap, the wording does still allow a gap but would it be better changed to

5.  Minimal (or no) gap is preffered between the top of the shoulder bell and the shoulder bridge.

 

Additionally for L3 I'd like to suggest the fall or angle of the tube stripes be correct as seen below, not sure about the wording for this.

 

As we see in these images the tube stripes fall / angle forward from the top and many point this out in applications.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheSwede[TK]]

20 minutes ago, gmrhodes13 said:

many struggle with assembly of ears on helmets so this may not be achievable for some.

Reaching Centurion should be an effort and just out of curiosity, the AM back and chest plate were not approvable some time ago due to the molds (v1) shouldn´t the right course of action be to have the makers to check their molds

and update accordingly? However I would be surprised if the angle isn´t already possible to achieve when trimming the ears on helmets from the vetted sellers list. Just a thought

 

22 minutes ago, gmrhodes13 said:

Additionally for L3 I'd like to suggest the fall or angle of the tube stripes be correct as seen below

Here Here! (I chant for Dan to)

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

13 minutes ago, TheSwede said:

Reaching Centurion should be an effort and just out of curiosity, the AM back and chest plate were not approvable some time ago due to the molds (v1) shouldn´t the right course of action be to have the makers to check their molds

and update accordingly? However I would be surprised if the angle isn´t already possible to achieve when trimming the ears on helmets from the vetted sellers list. Just a thought

 

Here Here! (I chant for Dan to)

Yes reaching Centurion should take some effort but making sure most armor is able to reach a specific goal doesn't hurt, AM was just one that didn't out of all other makes.

 

But since I know my ATA helmet can allow for the correct angle of ears so I'll be right in the future I'm really not fussed, I'm more thinking of others able to achieve this, just suggesting a little researching to see how many other makes of helmets do really wouldn't take a lot of work, or even just changing a word in a sentence to ideally was a suggestion  

[themaninthesuitcase[Admin]]

Whilst this accuracy is all well and good when it comes down to it, this is not a replica group.  I don't feel we should be enforcing the exact angle of the ear or brow height at anything less than Centurion. 

 

Troopers should, for the most part, look the same.  If we're down to such minutiae as the brow gap being 5mm off or the ears being off by ~10° then I'd suggest we're already doing a pretty decent job. 

 

Provide the information, those who wish to built to it will always exist but I don't feel this level of detail should be overly enforced.

[justjoseph63[Staff]]

11 minutes ago, themaninthesuitcase said:

 I don't feel we should be enforcing the exact angle of the ear or brow height at anything less than Centurion. 

The suggestion I made for the ear angle was indeed for Centurion level, "... I am proposing the following changes to the CRLs for ANH Stunt and ANH Hero for level 3. "

12 minutes ago, themaninthesuitcase said:

Provide the information, those who wish to built to it will always exist but I don't feel this level of detail should be overly enforced.

I suggested this so that those in the build process would have more of a guideline to work from during a build, rather than have to try to fix it afterward.

 

8 hours ago, gmrhodes13 said:

.  Ideally ears shall be tilted back at an angle to where the screws align closely with the rear angle of the trap located above the rear of the brow.

Much better!

[CableGuy[TK]]

12 hours ago, gmrhodes13 said:

Additionally for L3 I'd like to suggest the fall or angle of the tube stripes be correct as seen below, not sure about the wording for this.

 

As we see in these images the tube stripes fall / angle forward from the top and many point this out in applications.

As the "Tube Stripe Sheriff", I'm pleased to see hat this is catching on. My concern would be, not all 'generic' tube stripe templates account for the 'lean'. As an example, unbeknownst to me at the time, the templates that came with my trooping lid (not the one in the link) were pretty generic and could have been used on either cheek. I now know that this template was less accurate and would do it differently in the future (as I've learned a heck of a lot more in the last 18 months). As here, the Dave M style templates account for this lean but are commonly applied backwards. In this case, it is very obvious to the trained eye that they are backwards.

 

In summary, I would continue to 'suggest' this to EIB and L3 applicants, however unless all members purchase the exact same templates this would be hard to enforce.

 

3 hours ago, themaninthesuitcase said:

Troopers should, for the most part, look the same.  If we're down to such minutiae as the brow gap being 5mm off or the ears being off by ~10° then I'd suggest we're already doing a pretty decent job. 

I get what you're saying, however, I personally feel that the iconic look of the ANH Stunt TK is changed when the brow is touching the eyes. Yes, it might only be 5mm, however, it makes a huge difference.

 

 

 

[Easy[TK]]

There will always be those who critique every millimeter of a suit…and everything else…to death. “Screen accurate” is ideal, but to which stormtrooper in all the footage to we emulate? We’ve all seen the perfect standing still armour shots, the open calf armour during action shots, at least one had no brow trim, various gaps in brow trim and so on and so on. 

 

The word ‘Ideally’ is by far the most fair wording in some cases. Some will always strive and achieve the absolute pinnacle of perfection and others will only ever be able to get close. 

 

This is is a suggestion, from other examples I’ve encountered such as martial arts, and by no means am I trying to step on toes:

 

Perhaps it it would be acceptable to incorporate levels, or degrees, to the centurion level. L1, L2, L3 so to speak. 

 

Just a thought. 

[Harbinger[IPM]]

We already have levels, though. EIB and Centurion are optional programs. Nobody here at FISD is knocking on basic Legion standards, and if people choose to stop there they are more than welcome to. Trooping is what really matters, after all.

 

EI is meant as a upgrade over basic Legion approval, but still leaves a lot of leeway. Centurion was added later for those who wanted something closer to screen accurate and as such, I personally see no problem with added most of these suggestions.

[A.J. Hamler[TK]]

Not sure it's appropriate for me to comment on this since my TK has not yet been approved (I'm reeeeeeally close, though).  However, one thing that's bothered me just a bit is the photo that is always used to illustrate the ear-screw angle aligning with the back of the trap -- the green line that is aligned with the trap doesn't go through the centers of both screws.  I pulled the image up in Photoshop and added a new line as closely as I could directly through the centers of the screw heads, and it gives a somewhat different angle.  It's a really lo-res image so seeing the screws clearly is tough, but I think the red line is closer to the actual angle of the screws. 

 

[TheSwede[TK]]

Any and all input is always welcome

The green line is not meant to be an absolute but to show there is an angle to the ears that one should strive for to obtain higher screen accuracy and a visual way of pointing that out

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

For EIB (and therefore Centurion):

- Forbid elbow gaps between the bottom of the biceps and the top of the forearm.

 

- Forbid elbow gaps.

 

- Forbid some more the elbow gaps.

 

- Forbid any kind of elbow gaps once and for all.

From what I remember EIB is all about the overall appearance of the armor seen from a distance (as opposed to Centurion more focused on details). Elbow gaps are just that. Something that is visually striking and that has a huge impact on the look of an armor.
I challenge anyone to find just one stormtrooper, whether it's from A new Hope, The Empire Strikes Back or The Return of the Jedi with a gap between his biceps and forearm. Spoiler alert, you won't... Hence I can't understand why they have been tolerated for so much time now. On top of that, it's change that doesn't cost anything to the builder, it's only a matter of correct strapping.

 

So please. For real... I think its about time we adress this matter and get rid of it... It's been way too long. 

 

Edit: Here's even a possible wording of the thing

'- There must be no gap between the bottom of the biceps armour and the top of the forearm armour, except for the cut allowing to bend the elbow.
If you have trouble bending the elbow, it means your biceps armour needs to be lowered down from inside the shoulder bell.
Note: if you have long arms it is possible for the biceps armours not to be fitted inside the shoulder bell. It's fine.'

Edited January 2, 2019 by The5thHorseman
Added a CRL wording

[wook1138[TK]]

I think making people work for Centurion is a good thing - as so long as the requirements are easily backed up by reference images.  Many times the angle of the picture / lens / whatever can make things look very different.  I think basic and EIB are good as is for the most part (I always thought s-trim and rubber hand guards should be EIB, but that is me). 

 

Anyway, not my point here - what I like is the idea of listing more items as "ideal".  I think more things like this should be part of the CRL.  For example - the ear screws may not need to line up with the trap, but ideally they should.  This gives the builder a good guide of what to strive for - not getting it absolutely perfect will not affect their Centurion approval - but it is the ideal goal.  The more of this guidance right in the CRL, the better, IMO.  We are, after all, judging someone's work based on a few digital pictures - we can't always be sure down to the mm.  Well, unless your name is Dan.  I'm on board with the tube stripe direction requirement.  

 

Another thing to keep in mind - people will get discouraged if Centurion is a moving target.  I've seen a bit of this in other detachments.  Centurion requirements need to be well defined (which they are, until people start piping up about what is "ideal" and confuses applicants), but also somewhat static and predictable.  I'm not saying that changes can't be made, I just think changes should happen on a regular schedule - like once a year at a certain date.  Proposed changes should be in the CRL as "ideal" or "proposed" standards for a few months.  This is so someone starting a build will know what is expected from them in 2 or 3 months time when they are actually finished and applying for upper level approval. 

 

My two cents.

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

I think we have to bare in mind too that not everyone has the ideal shape and size, I know I'd prefer not to have any gaps around my knees, my elbows or shoulders but those are dictated by my height and my armor and there's not much I can do about it unless I was to try purchase a few longer pieces from another kit which may fit my size but may not match the colour of my original armor. My size is the reason that although I was the first TLJ-E approved my photos where not used in the CRL because of gaps around my knees and there was another applicant at the same time who didn't have those gaps so his where the preferred photos. Was I a little offended by this YES and I don't think many wouldn't, but if you make a level not achievable because of someone's size then I think you are excluding a lot of people.

 

 

 

 

 

[Easy[TK]]

2 hours ago, The5thHorseman said:

For EIB (and therefore Centurion):

- Forbid elbow gaps between the bottom of the biceps and the top of the forearm.

 

- Forbid elbow gaps.

 

- Forbid some more the elbow gaps.

 

- Forbid any kind of elbow gaps once and for all.

From what I remember EIB is all about the overall appearance of the armor seen from a distance (as opposed to Centurion more focused on details). Elbow gaps are just that. Something that is visually striking and that has a huge impact on the look of an armor.
I challenge anyone to find just one stormtrooper, whether it's from A new Hope, The Empire Strikes Back or The Return of the Jedi with a gap between his biceps and forearm. Spoiler alert, you won't... Hence I can't understand why they have been tolerated for so much time now. On top of that, it's change that doesn't cost anything to the builder, it's only a matter of correct strapping.

 

So please. For real... I think its about time we adress this matter and get rid of it... It's been way too long. 

 

Edit: Here's even a possible wording of the thing

'- There must be no gap between the bottom of the biceps armour and the top of the forearm armour, except for the cut allowing to bend the elbow.
If you have trouble bending the elbow, it means your biceps armour needs to be lowered down from inside the shoulder bell.
Note: if you have long arms it is possible for the biceps armours not to be fitted inside the shoulder bell. It's fine.'

Here’s some interesting troopers from ANH. 

Gaps and open biceps, and the one on the far right that’s not circled is obvious as well. A bit hardline to ‘Forbid’ accurate armour. As stated by others here, we are not all built the same. Our armour is a reflexion of us as individuals as much as it is a reflection of our screen heroes…troopers are heroes too…and that hardline position would mostly serve to ostracize those who don’t naturally conform to the parameters set by Mr. Lucas during filming. He had the luxury of screening to fit his needs. We, as individuals, don’t. We are a community of equals in odd sizes and shapes. 

 

I’ve read the posts through this thread and, much to my dismay, have to agree with the intent and reasons for the changes. Since my lid has a low brow and is not yet approved I will need to alter it to meet the L3 requirement. Fortunately it’s just the brow for me, a slight trimming should fix it. 

 

For those who have, or are just about to, submit for centurion it may be a crushing blow after countless hours of dedication to a build based on the old standards and acceptabilities. It may be prudent to inform everyone who receives the newsletters that submissions after the next newsletter will be subject to the updated CRL amendments. I only found this because I was looking for information on correct return edges. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Easy
Spelling

[Sly11[Admin]]

Some good points have been made in the last couple of posts.

We are not the RPF, we should not be making too many constant changes that start to discourage members from aiming higher. Prop replication is not what the Legion or FISD strives for, although we are reasonably close to the mark. Continuity is the best tool we have for the little things that are easy enough to be done.

Size is a great example and cant be discriminated against, so please always bare in mind  any changes you make should always be in the spirit of EIB and Centurion. (the different brow heights is good, the ear angles can be far more difficult to fix if not impossible in some cases so be wise with your suggestions.

We cant judge a member on the armour they purchased we can only guide and help them build it the best they can, please dont forget this.

 Paul's suggestion of looking at CRL adjustments quarterly is far more feasible for better stability and uniformity plus easier on GML's etc, remember what I said about the RPF.

 

AND...  hopefully we hit the March to 1000 EIB early enough in the year to celebrate with some special merch.