July 2018 Request for CRL Updates thread

[Sly11[Admin]]

Glen is correct, we do have control over our CRL's, as should all detachments.  I also think we probably move faster than most when it comes to revision, if you consider last year and into this year there is always conversation sparking up on one of our many costumes and we believe in  making all changes for the better.

Once we are satisfied that the changes and the language is right, then Paul will do his part and get them instated.

As a side note, GML's are now formally advised to use a combination of the wording and images within the CRL's, so some of these changes will potentially need new images also added to the CRL.

Do we need to look at the EI and Centurion photo check lists to make sure they are up to date as well.

 

 

 

[Commander Gree[501st]]

1 hour ago, Sly11 said:

Glen is correct, we do have control over our CRL's, as should all detachments.  I also think we probably move faster than most when it comes to revision, if you consider last year and into this year there is always conversation sparking up on one of our many costumes and we believe in  making all changes for the better.

Once we are satisfied that the changes and the language is right, then Paul will do his part and get them instated.

As a side note, GML's are now formally advised to use a combination of the wording and images within the CRL's, so some of these changes will potentially need new images also added to the CRL.

Do we need to look at the EI and Centurion photo check lists to make sure they are up to date as well.

 

 

 

Extreme thanks for this rundown. I'm not sure why the higher ups complain about the JRS then. I have seen so much talk there about how they aren't asked about the CRL. hmmmm maybe they just aren't in the look. I do think it would be cool to maybe update the CRL photos, maybe once a year, as a way to recognize someone for their hard work on their armor, but not sure how we would go about that, or if the legion would even approve something like that 

[starsaber25[Admin]]

3 hours ago, Commander Gree said:

I do think it would be cool to maybe update the CRL photos, maybe once a year, as a way to recognize someone for their hard work on their armor, but not sure how we would go about that, or if the legion would even approve something like that 

 

This is a nice idea in theory but could cause issues.  We have so much more information now on our costumes then we ever have.  I mean look at the ROTJ CRL and the potential changes there.  The CRL photos should barely be updated unless new information about the costume arises.  Remember they are the standard for approval and ideally there should be one set of high quality photos taken that really depict that costume and that is it.  Then all costume applications should be compared to that one high quality standard.

 

The FISD is already criticized for changing the CRLs too often by some.  Even though the CRLs that have been changed have been done so with careful oversight based on facts.  Adding unnecessary yearly changes would only add to that frustration and add fuel for the haters. 

 

 

[Commander Gree[501st]]

34 minutes ago, starsaber25 said:

 

This is a nice idea in theory but could cause issues.  We have so much more information now on our costumes then we ever have.  I mean look at the ROTJ CRL and the potential changes there.  The CRL photos should barely be updated unless new information about the costume arises.  Remember they are the standard for approval and ideally there should be one set of high quality photos taken that really depict that costume and that is it.  Then all costume applications should be compared to that one high quality standard.

 

The FISD is already criticized for changing the CRLs too often by some.  Even though the CRLs that have been changed have been done so with careful oversight based on facts.  Adding unnecessary yearly changes would only add to that frustration and add fuel for the haters. 

 

 

The only "yearly change" I suggested would be that of the person in the photo. And if the person is held to the same standard, why would anyone complain. it would be set up like any other award, there would be criteria and it awarded by the members of this admin. Changing to photo shouldn't really matter to anyone as long as that photo is held to the same standard as all other photos. if the photo is there to help with basic approval then you aren't really having any other expectations of the costume itself than to be just that, basic. But if you add the fact that someone can be awarded the honor of being that reference photo, its kinda cool. To be able to display your work to the entire community, let alone be the bases of which others copy. I know it would probably be difficult to do, but nominations and such should go with it. again it was just a suggestion, I haven't been around long so im still learning the ends and outs. hope to be high ranking one day and do justice to the franchise we all know and love.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

FYI, the Legacy Era Female now has a DLT-19 as an accessory.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Hey guys,

 

Andrew – can you please update the first post so that there is a list of changes and their status as the first part?  It will keep things clean for tracking.

Any changes should be in keeping with the spirit of the awards, e.g.

 

EI = a step up from base CRL that can be done for a low to moderate cost, and a moderate amount of effort.  Parts/changes should be easy to come by.
Centurion = as good as we can get it and builds upon L1/L2 requirements.

 

Thus we’d never want to put something in EI that is very hard to do, or requires an extensive mod or a part that is very hard to get or expensive.

 

Also, realize that we can’t include every possible permutation or costume flubs, e.g. just because there is a single TK on screen that does not have a holster doesn’t mean we’ll allow them to be optional, and just as there is – on BluRay freeze frame – gaffers tape and paint boo-boos doesn’t mean we’ll allow them either.

CRLs should be pretty static and are usually done once a year for major changes.  The ones we are doing monthly are usually small adds to L2/L3 that shouldn’t really affect people who’s builds are in flight.  L1 items again if monthly are usually small items.  

 

The “official stance” is really whatever the DL & LMO agree on.  Ultimately, the CRLs are owned by the LMO team and as they have trust in DLs, they allow the DL’s to make changes directly.  Since I’ve been involved with the CRL process for over a decade and have written or re-written dozens of CRLs across 3 detachments, they’ve been pretty good about letting me update them directly.  At some point it would be great to have a trusted FISD staff member as back-up, as at some point I’ll want to pull an Albin and retire from day-to-day.

 

For ROTJ for the rivets on the shoulders, this is why it is a case where we start with making it optional for those who want to do it, and would only make it mandatory if for instance we only find one person without them.

 

As noted, we do move quickly on FISD mainly as we have a very mature and seasoned team in place.  I was reading chatter over at one detachment where most staff were pretty new and had little idea as to the CRL process, and as a result they spent a lot of time churning on this.

 

For the CRL models, we change them as we get better models is really all there is to it.

 

As for text vs. pictures, I’ve been a GML for 10+ years and can certainly say that neither on their own is adequate.  The reality is that neither can really stand on their own, and if GMLs are confused to me this is a failure of training new GMLs.  Sad that some garrison's just aren't that squared away.
 

[Commander Gree[501st]]

13 minutes ago, Daetrin said:

Hey guys,

 

Andrew – can you please update the first post so that there is a list of changes and their status as the first part?  It will keep things clean for tracking.

Any changes should be in keeping with the spirit of the awards, e.g.

 

EI = a step up from base CRL that can be done for a low to moderate cost, and a moderate amount of effort.  Parts/changes should be easy to come by.
Centurion = as good as we can get it and builds upon L1/L2 requirements.

 

Thus we’d never want to put something in EI that is very hard to do, or requires an extensive mod or a part that is very hard to get or expensive.

 

Also, realize that we can’t include every possible permutation or costume flubs, e.g. just because there is a single TK on screen that does not have a holster doesn’t mean we’ll allow them to be optional, and just as there is – on BluRay freeze frame – gaffers tape and paint boo-boos doesn’t mean we’ll allow them either.

CRLs should be pretty static and are usually done once a year for major changes.  The ones we are doing monthly are usually small adds to L2/L3 that shouldn’t really affect people who’s builds are in flight.  L1 items again if monthly are usually small items.  

 

The “official stance” is really whatever the DL & LMO agree on.  Ultimately, the CRLs are owned by the LMO team and as they have trust in DLs, they allow the DL’s to make changes directly.  Since I’ve been involved with the CRL process for over a decade and have written or re-written dozens of CRLs across 3 detachments, they’ve been pretty good about letting me update them directly.  At some point it would be great to have a trusted FISD staff member as back-up, as at some point I’ll want to pull an Albin and retire from day-to-day.

 

For ROTJ for the rivets on the shoulders, this is why it is a case where we start with making it optional for those who want to do it, and would only make it mandatory if for instance we only find one person without them.

 

As noted, we do move quickly on FISD mainly as we have a very mature and seasoned team in place.  I was reading chatter over at one detachment where most staff were pretty new and had little idea as to the CRL process, and as a result they spent a lot of time churning on this.

 

For the CRL models, we change them as we get better models is really all there is to it.

 

As for text vs. pictures, I’ve been a GML for 10+ years and can certainly say that neither on their own is adequate.  The reality is that neither can really stand on their own, and if GMLs are confused to me this is a failure of training new GMLs.  Sad that some garrison's just aren't that squared away.
 

Huge thank you for this insight!

[ukswrath[Staff]]

Back to the forearm wrist return edge. Taking a closer look at the screen shot, it clearly has return edge. So, do we make it an option or no. What say ye?

 

[Commander Gree[501st]]

I say yes...but to what degree. Maybe "some return edge may remain at the ridge" or spin or whatever name it is for that part of the armor

[Daetrin[Admin]]

47 minutes ago, Commander Gree said:

Huge thank you for this insight!

Anytime!

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Here is a question wrt to return edge - before you put this in a CRL - the question is what problem are you trying to solve? Has this come up a lot?  We can't put every detail in a CRL, so usually put ones where people have issues.

[Commander Gree[501st]]

3 minutes ago, Daetrin said:

Here is a question wrt to return edge - before you put this in a CRL - the question is what problem are you trying to solve? Has this come up a lot?  We can't put every detail in a CRL, so usually put ones where people have issues.

Good point. I actually thought this was about the rivets. but understand how things get going on other things lol

Edited July 13, 2018 by Commander Gree

[starsaber25[Admin]]

1 hour ago, ukswrath said:

Back to the forearm wrist return edge. Taking a closer look at the screen shot, it clearly has return edge. So, do we make it an option or no. What say ye?

 

 

I say it just be eliminated from level 3 that you can’t have return edge. Then leave it as purely optional at the least. 

[ukswrath[Staff]]

2 hours ago, Daetrin said:

Here is a question wrt to return edge - before you put this in a CRL - the question is what problem are you trying to solve? Has this come up a lot?  We can't put every detail in a CRL, so usually put ones where people have issues.

Same problem we're resolving with the pop rivets used on the shoulders, sniper knee and ammo packs. Until last year when decent photos were brought forth no one knew better. Now that we have applicants asking if they can use them at the higher levels do we beat them to the punch when it comes to the return edge? To be honest, looking at older photos or newer ones can it be said without a doubt none of the ROTJ armor has wrist side return edge?  It's the only armor that is overlap, is it then possible that it's the only armor that has return edge?  Inquiring minds want to know

 

Heck I can go either way to be honest,  

[Commander Gree[501st]]

58 minutes ago, ukswrath said:

Same problem we're resolving with the pop rivets used on the shoulders, sniper knee and ammo packs. Until last year when decent photos were brought forth no one knew better. Now that we have applicants asking if they can use them at the higher levels do we beat them to the punch when it comes to the return edge? To be honest, looking at older photos or newer ones can it be said without a doubt none of the ROTJ armor has wrist side return edge?  It's the only armor that is overlap, is it then possible that it's the only armor that has return edge?  Inquiring minds want to know

 

Heck I can go either way to be honest,  

i wander if we allow overlap and such, if more people will go for ROTJ? A ton of ANH troopers out there, the ROTJ would be a good "next step" for when their armor is beat up. with those rivets and "fixes" they may be able to turn the kit into something other than a TD, maybe? I am the same. really i dont care either way. I say make it optional. I stated somewhere that i feel there should be 3 cases of a change in order for it to be considered, well both troopers in your photo have returns, so where might the 3rd be lol

[Sly11[Admin]]

I also could go either way on the return edge at the wrists.

As to the rivets, I am satisfied we have seen enough evidence that these existed on more than one kit and the amendments to the CRL should be made.

[Harbinger[IPM]]

If there are multiple examples of return edges on the wrists I agree on removing the restriction for L3.

[justjoseph63[Staff]]

In the process of reviewing the newest ROTJ EI app., I have also noticed a few additional items that may need some CRL love, for example:

 

The current requirement for ROTJ L3 shoulder bridges is that they be held down with elastic (as in ANH), and that they shall "free float" in the back.  In looking closely at the screen caps, there is no evidence (that I can find) of the use of elastic bands, and it also appears that they are affixed(?) in the back, (Velcro)?

 

                                                      

                                                                                                               This one actually appears to have rivets in the back, (probably a one-off, though)

            

 

I say we remove any references to the elastic strap and free floating requirements altogether, as there is no evidence, (again, at least that I can find).

Perhaps something along the lines of this for L2:

"Shoulder straps must be curved to where they lay flat against the back plate, and may be affixed with Velcro if needed to achieve this". ?

 

 

 

 

 

[starsaber25[Admin]]

I concur with Joseph. This ROTJ study session has been fun.  It’s nice to see this costume finally getting some love. 

[ukswrath[Staff]]

Ditto!

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

ESB for L3 can we add no bicep hooks

 

	Biceps Biceps are fully closed. Overlap construction is only allowable for kits that come with the cover strip molded in to the part.
	OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
	OPTIONAL Level three certification (if applicable): Biceps must be constructed using the butt joint and cover strip method. Overlap construction is not allowed. No bicep hooks present

 

References

 

 

 

But still had the bell elastic strap

 

 

 

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

In regards to the ROTJ Paul posted these two images in another thread:

 

This is an original ROTJ armour on display.

 

And this is in the LFL archives.

 

 

From the same display as the first image, the knee ammo strip has the middle rivet

 

Bit hard to make out what was used on the sides to attach the strip as it is covered by tape and unclear in the other side image.

 

 

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Guys - I've been up to my butt in karate/scouts/work plus just trying to keep up with the DL FB group chatter (they chat a lot) and just haven't had as much time as I'd like to spend on the CRLs.  Can we start a new November thread?  It would help me greatly to have one place that has the latest in the right format, then I can bang it out quick.  

 

Esp. as we'll soon have a Nov newsletter and I'd like to do them in a batch before that goes out.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

Yea the DOs were discussing this last week. We'll have one up by the weekend.

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

I may of missed the conversation about this but just in case, there is no mention of the boot soles being white/tan at present and the image used of the boots in the CRL have black soles, I would think this correction would be a basic level requirement.