"E6000 + Snaps = Uh-Oh" deformation discussion thread

[Harbinger[IPM]]

Seems this would do best as its own topic so as not to derail various build threads:

On 1/16/2018 at 9:40 AM, QuartZ said:

Hmmm, well last night was a bit of a bummer. If you are a pro builder, please give this post of mine a read and let me know what you think.

 

I went to check out the kidney and posterior parts that I had installed my first snap plates on (I started with the seam that joins the two together). When I took off all of the magnets and clamps I discovered that the center snap plates locations (down the middle of the back) on both parts of armor exhibited some deformation or warping over the locations of the snaps. It's noticeable in certain lighting/reflection conditions. Here's a photo of the kidney to illustrate:

 

Above you can see at the lower edge the reflection domes right where the snaps are located in the plates on the inside of the armor. Now, I tried to angle this into the light to help draw attention to the issue, and because it sits under the belt/thermal detonator, I'm not totally freaked out about it. It sucks, maybe it could be worse? But I'm trying to avoid it happening as I keep gluing these in! The locations to either side have some subtle doming too, but not as bad/noticeable as here on the flat location. The same is true for the 3 locations across the seam on the posterior.

 

Now, I did NOT apply any E6000 directly to the snap metal. In fact, in designing the plates and spreading the glue, the whole point was to avoid the metal contacting the ABS as much as possible and to not get any glue on the snaps! I was very diligent about that.

 

So, after being a bit bummed, I searched and read more about the rumors of E6000 and snaps causing heat/melting/warping. There really is no definitive information about this that I could easily find. But from all of the opinions that I could gather on the subject, I decided to try some modifications to my next set of snap plates in hopes of resolving the issue. So, last night I started by cutting little squares of electrical tape (with the corners cut off) and applying them to my snap plates like this:

 

This precaution seemed unnecessary as I mentioned before that I'm not putting any glue over the snaps...but I wanted to eliminate 1 variable with the tape. Important note: in attaching this next set of snaps, I still did not put any glue over the metal snap areas (now covered by black electrical tape). The next change I went with was to reduce the clamping force used to hold the snap plates while the glue set up. I used my larger magnets and clamps last time and I thought the pressure may have been so great and the ABS so thin in these areas that perhaps they squeezed around the snap areas cause the warped/dome shapes? I don't know, but less pressure was the goal. Here's what take 2 looked like on the back and kidney armor:

 

And a closeup of smaller/less magnets used in conjunction with painters tape and smaller/less powerful clamps:

 

The result was inconclusive. I'm not really sure. It still didn't resolve the issue as I can see subtle humps in the plastic if I look for them in at least the kidney armor in the center location and on one side (left). The back armor actually turned out pretty good and if there's any deformation, it's so slight that I don't notice it. Here's a photo showing what the second method yields in a more flat lighting condition where shadows help emphasize the deformation. Note that this time the upper edge in this photo would be along the seam that attaches to the back plate and the bottom edge on the floor is the first gluing attempt where I first noticed the problem:

 

And here's that first image I posted again because it was actually taken this morning after 12 hours of clamping time so that you can compare in a more reflective lighting condition. Look closely at the top left edge of the armor. The reflection does warp around the location of the snaps in both cases:

 

So, I'm not sure what's going on. My final thought is that perhaps glue across the whole snap plate and over the electrical tape would be better in that the ABS would be uniformly effected by whatever the glue is doing. It's one of the constants in both of my attempts so far. Perhaps the glue heats up, maybe not. Perhaps the glue shrinks or expands a bit and since I don't have any in the snap areas this happens. Perhaps I need to apply pressure differently like putting a scrap abs rectangle on the inside/outside for more uniform pressure?

 

I just want to avoid jacking up the chest at this point as the locations will be too noticeable, I am considering using CA glue at this point, but don't like that I get 1 shot, and it may make the ABS brittle. That also worries me. I think I'll do the ab locations next as they should be hidden under the chest. I'm going to try some of the thought I had above but I'll wait until some others chime in.

 

Any additional help and/or guidance on this issue is much appreciated,

-Dana

19 hours ago, wook1138 said:

Ok, I doubled checked for those dimples. I have a few very discreet ones associated with a few of my nylon bases. Most of them blend in and I didn’t bother trying to photograph them. The ABS snap bases were more obvious. Here is one:


Here is a closer shot. There is some yellow discolouration.

To be fair, I did get glue on the metal for this one. It also looks way worse in the pics.


This is a location of an old nylon base that was moved. Yellow discolouration.


Used nylon bases. No sign of corrosion of metal but the e6000 is mostly yellow.


The only other place I used the ABS plates were on the shoulder straps. There is a slight bump on the back ones, I can’t see the front ones.


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3 hours ago, QuartZ said:

Thanks for posting all of these photos. I think it’s important and will help others hopefully in dealing with or avoiding issues similar to ours. That image (above) is more “pointed” or defined than mine. Mine are much lower elevation changes spread out over a slightly larger diameter.

 

Actually, I warmed and bent each plate into a slight curve where necessary to closely match the location on the armor. So when I laid hem on the armor before glue, there were little to no gaps. When I glued them and clamped with magnets, I didn’t see any strain or bend. I’m fact, my second set after I noticed the first set warp used very little pressure with light clamps and fewer/weaker magnets. Really strange. The snap plates weren’t trying to spring off the armor in any way, that’s why I curved those that needed it.

 

-Dana

 

1 hour ago, Harbinger said:

Mine does in fact have warping, but I'm like 90% sure it developed slowly as they weren't there before:

 

The bumps are in pretty much every spot I have a snap plate - some have glue on the metal, some don't, some are recessed more than others, so I don't think those variables affect the outcome much.

6 hours ago, wook1138 said:

Short answer is, "I don't know".  Turns out that E6000 may react with the metal of the snaps - creating heat - and then resulting in, well... you saw the picture.  Some of the recommendations have included:

• avoid getting E6000 on the actual snap (metal).  I don't know how this could be reasonably achieved while still getting enough E6000 on the snap base.
• use high quality snaps (I used Tandy brand snaps - they were supposed to be good).  Ukswrath (Tony) mentions what snaps he uses in QuartZ's thread.  I used nickle plated snaps - maybe stainless steel is better?
• be mindful of how you position and clamp the snap while the glue dries.  Maybe I need to add some kind of support to the back side (the side in the image) so the snap does not get pushed through the ABS.

QuartZ also discussed some methods he tried to avoid the issue as well.  That said, this does not appear to be a common issue with other builders. 

 

I did notice that the E6000 will react with the magnets - I have some yellow discoloration where the magnets (especially if the outer protective coat has been compromised or chipped off) came in contact with the ABS and E6000 during drying.  I'm using magnets bought at Lee Valley and the E6000 was bought in Canada - which may be slightly different from what is sold in the US.

 

6 hours ago, wook1138 said:

Oh yeah, I also read somewhere that E6000 reacts to pressure - it heats with applied pressure.  Not sure if this is true or not, but something else to consider.  So, don't apply too much pressure.  Yeesh.

 

5 hours ago, Bud Spaklur said:

LOL! So let me get this straight- apply pressure, but DONT apply pressure....apply glue, but don’t let the glue get on anything.....use snaps, but don’t let them come in contact with the plastic...... So why’d you get Canadian E6000? Also wondering if wrapping snaps in a layer of painters tape will help with discoloration?

I thought I saw somewhere somebody glued the snaps to a small 1” ABS plastic plate, and then glued the other side of the plate to the ABS directly- so it acted as a barrier of protection.....could this/is this advised?

Any of the gurus want to weigh in here???


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5 hours ago, Frank1769 said:

I thought I saw somewhere somebody glued the snaps to a small 1” ABS plastic plate, and then glued the other side of the plate to the ABS directly- so it acted as a barrier of protection.....could this/is this advised?

Any of the gurus want to weigh in here???


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Not a guru here but I glued all my snaps to a scrap piece of plastic then glued that to the armor. I’ve got different armor but I had no issues. I’ve checked the snaps and they don’t appear to be reacting to the glue. Most of them I used a different glue with because it stuck better but some have e6000. I thought it would be helpful in snapping everything with an extra little bit of space. Also I’ve had no issues with magnet discoloration but wrapping them be helpful. I’m wondering if environment has anything to do with it, like humidity and temp.


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5 hours ago, wook1138 said:

Ha ha.  Yep, that is about it. 

 

I'm in Canada - so, Canadian E6000.  Yes, I do try to wrap the magnets with painters tape - but, stuff happens.  QuartZ did try to use electrical tape on the actual snaps to stop the reaction.  I didn't do this.

 

So, to follow... you make the snap plate (snap set to small piece of ABS or nylon) then attach another piece of ABS to the back of that, then attach the whole thing to the armor?  I haven't seen that but that would protect the armor from the metal. 

 

4 hours ago, TheSwede said:

Perhaps to much glue was used, it does get hot and more glue - more heat in combination with what others already said with snap-plates straining the armor for a longer period of time..never used E6000 though,  used snap-plates on my TX build with zap-a-gap and that stuff gets really hot but nothing happend with the armor (Anovos). That stuff cures in seconds. Now I only use the ”movie-way” hence no snap-plates. So...try using less glue and see what happens 

 

(I've quoted most of the relevant posts for posterity and context.)

[Harbinger[IPM]]

2 minutes ago, QuartZ said:

Hmm, that's really interesting that you didn't know you had warps/bumps/humps before! Oh my what scandal have I uncovered!? Dare I say this should be called...SNAPGATE?

 

Ok, so this morning I took @ukswrath's advice and popped off a snap plate. Luckily as I do a lot of 3D printing I own this tool that I bought on amazon that I use to remove objects from my printers bed. It's thin flexible metal that gets under an edge and makes removing things like this really easy:

 

So, with that tool and some nervousness about what I might find under the snap plate, I chose the worst one on the kidney armor which was the center one along the posterior seam. It was also in the first stage of glue ups where I used heavy pressure (from big magnets and medium clamps), no black electrical tape, but no glue applied to the snaps. Here's what I found:

 

Nothing conclusive! The glue had a great bond, was fully cured, and was clear/not discolored. The snaps looked brand new. No signs of any chemical reaction with the snaps or ABS printed snap plates. At least nothing I can observe with my naked eye. That doesn't rule i out at all as I admit it isn't scientific. I don't see any melting of any parts involved.

 

Even more interesting, is that after removing this, the plastic returned somewhat to it's original shape. I'd say it went back to about 80% of what it looked like before. Next, I tried using a little pressure with my thumbs from the outside while bracing the inside with my other fingers to press down on the high points of the humps. After wiping the surface with a cloth to remove fingerprints, it looked like this:

 

You can look back at my "before" posts and I think I would say that removing the snaps and a little massaging of the armor with my hands put it back to about 90% of the original condition. I really don't see much warping anymore. If it's there, it's so slight that I think no one else would spot it without me pointing it out and really angling lights at the damn thing. So, at least I'm happy that I have a good place to start from for attempt #2.

 

Another datapoint that I'll give is this. I pulled off all of the snap plates that I had installed and wanted to show what happened with the snaps that had black electrical tape on them. Pretty much everything was the same as the snaps without tape, but the electrical tape had melted from either contact with glue or gas...and there was some black smudgy gunk, all o which I was able to clean off simply with a paper towel and some alcohol. The glue bond was still fine, and these plates didn't exhibit and more or less warping. So I state that the electrical tape was not a differentiating factor:

 

Gotta run...more on this when I continue. Discuss!

 

-Dana

Very strange.

 

FWIW my plates were pre-bent and that didn't seem to make much difference, perhaps the extra plate and glue causes some expansion/contraction issues leading to deformation? My working theory based on your latest post, at least...

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Never had an issue here with E6000 and snaps in regards to distortion of armor, I do heat my snap plates so the snap is recessed and becomes flat with the snap plate so there is nothing sticking out of the plate so no pressure against the armor.

 

It it's not a snap sticking out from the plate then it must either an issue with the combination of snap and glue, could also be the type of plastic used or even all three together.

 

May be a good test before you apply to armor theory in future.

 

 

[jjv5150[TK]]

Who's armor did you use?? 

[Tolo[TK]]

wow that sucks! 
Never had an issue either. 

[magni[TK]]

I use nylon webbing and no clamps, no magnets. They conform to any angle or bend and the nylon absorbs the glue creating an even tighter bond.

[catalystofchaos[501st]]

I use nylon webbing and no clamps, no magnets. They conform to any angle or bend and the nylon absorbs the glue creating an even tighter bond.

So do you glue the snaps to nylon webbing first then attach that to ABS? Sorry, I haven’t started my build yet and now panicking as I have snaps on order and some e6000!!!


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[Locitus[Admin]]

Glued my snaps on with no no reaction what so ever. Only difference is I use high quality maritime grade snaps.

[magni[TK]]

So do you glue the snaps to nylon webbing first then attach that to ABS? Sorry, I haven’t started my build yet and now panicking as I have snaps on order and some e6000!!!


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Take a soldering iron and burn hole in center of nylon and install snap. Then glue nylon plate to armor. No need for clamps. Tack of glue holds in place. The advantage with this way is it conforms to armor shape. And face it most spots you install snap plates are not flat. So better bond. I have more then 100 troops and not one issue with this approach.
Good Luck Future Trooper!

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[Novak Dimon[TK]]

Hi, some people in Germany had problems with fake E6000 that came from China. The glue reacts with the plastic, creating bumps and warping. 

I have one spot on my chest Armor where I can see the snap and it’s plate under the Armor if you have the correct lighting conditions. When I first saw it, I took the snap off and the tiny bump disappeared. 

After glueing it again with less pressure it was better but still there. It is an Anovos Armor and I believe it is because the armor is so thin. 

It’s still there because you can only see it if you know that it’s there and are lying under my feet. 

I think using nylon instead of ABS to hold the snaps eliminate the risk of warping. All other snaps of my armor are held by velcro that is glued with E6000 without any issues. 

[QuartZ]

To answer some question, I think it would be great if anyone with similar issues to what @Harbinger and I are reporting could report the following (I'll go first with mine):

 

Armor - Anovos

Glue - E6000 (USA)

Snap Brand - Tandy

Snap Plate Material - ABS (3D printed)

Clamping Method - Spring clamps and magnets

 

Perhaps we can see some patterns or even rule some things out. It would be good to know for future builders.

 

Thanks in advance for anyone who is contributing information and suggestions to this thread!

-Dana

 

 

[wook1138[TK]]

To follow up on QuartZ's post:

I used both nylon and ABS plates.  The nylon did not give me a lot of problems aside from minor discoloration immediately below the snap plate - I used magnets with no (or rare) clamps.  The bigger issue came when I tried to use the ABS snap plates...

 

Armor - AP

Glue - E6000 ("Made in USA" but purchased in Canada)

Snap Brand - Tandy (Nickle plated line 24)

Snap Plate Material - ABS (as provided by AP)

Clamping Method - Spring clamps and magnets

 

In my worst-case example (see image in first post), I used a lot of E6000 (compared to what I had been using) and applied spring clamps.  The clamps were on for at least a day (I can't 100% recall).  There was a very slight convex shape to the bottom of the snap itself (the metal base part) - which could have pushed against the armor a bit.  The plate was flat - which actually allowed a little room for the metal part when placed on the very slightly curved armor.

 

I hope this helps

[Harbinger[IPM]]

I have not, I'll live with the bumps. I'll give it a try on my FOTK.

[QuartZ]

For science, I decided to put this together this morning:

 

It's a scrap piece of Anovos ABS from my trimmings. On the left is a Tandy Line 24 snap glued with E6000 straight to the armor. I didn't add any clamping/pressure. I just held it firmly to the armor for about a minute while the glue set up. To the right is one of my snap plates that was used on my kidney armor and exhibited the humps when installed. Here I've chosen to spread the same thin layer of E6000 across the plate BUT this time I coated the entire back including over the snaps themselves. No electrical tape used. The point of that test was to have uniform glue coverage across the total surface area of the snap plate instead of having to circular areas that were bare. I used clamps and magnets as I had on my build to try and be consistent in changing only 1 variable (uniform glue coverage)

 

If it's really about the snaps, we should see some type of deformation on the right test with the snap plate. We may see some signs of warping with the single snap glued directly on. Maybe not as there's no clamping.

 

We'll see what happens in 24 hours.

 

-Dana

[QuartZ]

Ok, so this morning I pulled off the clamps and magnets to take a look at the reverse side of my snap plate glue test and here's what it looks like:

 

You can see 2 humps along that lower edge and they absolutely correspond to the locations of the snaps on the other side. I didn't take a photo of the single snap glued straight to the scrap because there wasn't any noticeable warping. Looked like it had no effect on the ABS when glued by itself.

 

Hmm, so with full glue coverage on the snap plate and snaps in this test it doesn't look any worse than when I avoided getting glue on the snaps themselves. In fact, I'd say this is about the same as what I experienced on the armor when I lightened the clamp and magnet pressure (which makes sense as I used the same clamping setup in this test). I don't think that the humps are caused by uneven heating or expansion/contraction of the plastic due to glue not covering the whole area.

 

I'm still going to try some other tests...

 

-Dana

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

It's a weird thing, I've not seen that issue and I've assembled a few different makes of armor, RS, AP, AM and ATA, never had any reaction and in places I've gone overboard with the E6000. I have also used magnets, clamps and tape to hold the plates in place still without any distortion.

 

Still wondering if there is a reaction with the coating on the snaps, we use Birch snaps here down under and don't have access to the Tandy snaps.

 

[QuartZ]

On 1/20/2018 at 3:48 PM, gmrhodes13 said:

It's a weird thing, I've not seen that issue and I've assembled a few different makes of armor, RS, AP, AM and ATA, never had any reaction and in places I've gone overboard with the E6000. I have also used magnets, clamps and tape to hold the plates in place still without any distortion.

 

Still wondering if there is a reaction with the coating on the snaps, we use Birch snaps here down under and don't have access to the Tandy snaps.

 

It is weird. I'm conducting some more tests to see if the snap material matters (Tandy snaps are nickel plated). I'm also looking to see if the rigid nature of my ABS snap plates are contribute to any way to the deformation by trying a nylon strap instead and removing pretty much all pressure from the equation. I have some more on that below.

 

The following is copied over from my build thread:

2 minutes ago, QuartZ said:

Ok, so last night I was able to make a test nylon snap plate with 2 Fasnap snaps installed. I used a soldering iron to make the holes with the assistance of one of my 3D printed snap plates as a template for hole placement. As an observation, I feel like the Fasnap snaps hammer together easier than the Tandy snaps. I'm not sure that's scientific...but I felt like it took less time per snap with the setting tool and hammer. Here's the test plate:

 

I then covered the back side of the nylon webbing with E6000 glue and went all the way up to the edges of the snaps. I spread the glue evenly across the surface and I wasn't too careful around the snaps. In fact, I intentionally want there to be some glue that ends up on the snaps because that should be the "worst case scenario" if I'm going to do this for real on the armor later. Then I got another piece of scrap ABS armor trimming that I had prepped by sanding the patch where the snap was going and laid the snap plate in place. I secured it with some blue painters tape which keeps it from moving and applies very little downward force on the assembly.

 

So this morning (not quite 12 hours later) I checked on the test. Here's the same piece of scrap flipped over. I don't see any warping or deformation. The area looks perfectly flat and none of the reflections warp around the locations of the snaps (those 2 parallel line-like features on the right hand side of the ABS were already there).

 

So I'll check back on this piece tonight when I get home from work. I'm guessing it will look the same, but as @Harbinger mentioned his warping may have developed over some time, I just want to give it 24 hours to make a call. I plan to remove the tape and see how the bond turned out.

 

If everything seems good and strong, I'll make up the rest of my torso snap plates like these and start gluing them into the armor late tonight.

 

-Dana

 

[LTM[TK]]

Haven't done strapping on my TK yet, but I did attend an AP last weekend and looked at a 8 year old suit that had the domes on the outside of the armor. Guys had not noticed it before and everyone was surprised. Another builder said he basically made a U-channel to hold the snaps off direct contact with the armor and did not have any issues -   _TT_  The snaps would be between the tops of the T's

[Harbinger[IPM]]

FWIW Tandy offers stainless steel snaps.

[QuartZ]

Just now, QuartZ said:

Alright, I wanted to report back what I found when I got home. I removed the painters tape. The E6000 bond looks great:

 

Flipping the test over to examine the "outside" it looked the same as this morning. However, I wanted to be sure so I grabbed a flashlight and shined it at the surface at an angle pretty much parallel with the surface and saw 2 very, very faint humps. It was the only thing I could think of that would reveal the truth. These imperfections are nearly invisible under normal lighting conditions without shining a flashlight at it. Sorry the photo isn't in focus, but hopefully you can see what I'm trying to show (there is something there):

 

So, it appears that even with this method, with this combination of materials, and with no pressure applied.... it may be impossible to avoid the issue entirely. I think this result it the most acceptable to me, but I'm trying to be very critical and honest about what I report to the group on this issue. Because the truth is, if you really examine the surface, you will see that it did have an effect on the uniformity of the ABS. At least with this level of scrutiny, with the Anovos kit. I don't want anyone thinking that this is a guaranteed method for avoiding the phenomena entirely.

 

That said, I think it's acceptable to me. I don't expect anyone to shine a flashlight at my armor in this manner.

-Dana

 

10 hours ago, LTM said:

Haven't done strapping on my TK yet, but I did attend an AP last weekend and looked at a 8 year old suit that had the domes on the outside of the armor. Guys had not noticed it before and everyone was surprised. Another builder said he basically made a U-channel to hold the snaps off direct contact with the armor and did not have any issues -   _TT_  The snaps would be between the tops of the T's

Oh man, what have we started!  I hope it didn't bum them out too much!

 

-Dana

[LTM[TK]]

18 hours ago, QuartZ said:

Oh man, what have we started!  I hope it didn't bum them out too much!

 

-Dana

Only pointing out that this must have been going on for a while, so I would not spend a lot of effort on new plastic being the culprit. 

 

What about putting another plastic plate between the bottom of the snaps and the inside of the armor? Maybe sandwich the plastic first to see if the bulge telegraphs to the plate. If not, then glue to the inside of the armor (thinking the extra plate will be more giving to whatever is going on?

 

[Harbinger[IPM]]

Can anyone with an ATA or other thicker-plastic kit chime in? I wonder if that solves the issue...

[justjoseph63[Staff]]

I have used nylon and E-6000 to make all connections on my armor, including AM (thicker ABS ) and Anovos (thinner ABS) and never had any sort of bulge issues.  When gluing them on I never add any to the center under the snaps themselves, only the outer edges.

I have seen some bulge issues on Troopers where the snaps were attached to ABS plates and CA glue was used to attach directly to the armor.  As everyone knows, CA will get pretty hot while curing, especially when using an accelerant.

[jjv5150[TK]]

On 2/5/2018 at 1:40 PM, justjoseph63 said:

I have used nylon and E-6000 to make all connections on my armor, including AM (thicker ABS ) and Anovos (thinner ABS) and never had any sort of bulge issues.  When gluing them on I never add any to the center under the snaps themselves, only the outer edges.

I have seen some bulge issues on Troopers where the snaps were attached to ABS plates and CA glue was used to attach directly to the armor.  As everyone knows, CA will get pretty hot while curing, especially when using an accelerant.

Justjoseph63 nylon? 

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

1 hour ago, jjv5150 said:

 nylon?