The new Laws TK bucket...discussion

[GINO]

The SDS helmets did not derive in any way from the Brian R. or Dave M. helmets.

 

After ANH was finished, AA had nothing but 'skins' left. Skins meaning unused left over vac formed pieces from the original production. Using hero style pieces (as the stunt style faceplate had been modified into the hero) he then set out to alter the helmet molds to make them more "production friendly".

I'm talking about the 3 piece helmet design with the serrated hose section in the rear, and the hero faceplate with the lack of undercut. It also has weird looking earcaps as part of the back helmet section. Some of you have seen them.

Ainsworth said that he was improving on the design, asthetically as well as from a production standpoint. He thought that LFL would come back to him for the sequel so he wanted to be prepared. Because of the film's success, and because he was paid so little for his items from the first film, he felt entitled to a major payday for the sequel. When they didn't, he felt slighted which is why he has such issues with LFL. This was long before the lawsuit.

Some of these style of helmets were put it on Christie's along with some other items. They were there to raise capital for his new business as well as guage market value and demand for a new production of helmets.

 

Anyways, I believe wholeheartedly (as do a lot of other top trooper helmet enthusiasts) that his current run of trooper helmets were derived from molds of the 'improved design' helmet. It is believed that he took those molds, and tried his best to restore them to the way they looked for the original film helmets, but was not very successful. Thus all the differences between his current helmets and the original ones.

One look at the 'improved design' helmets and the current ones and you can clearly see that one was derived from the other."

 

In his own words to me, this 'improved' version of helmet was made from leftover pieces after production in an attempt to 'improve' upon the original design, as well as make it easier to create in a production environment. Multiple pieces made for easier removal, including the seperate hose piece that attached to the mold.

He believed that he would be called on to create all the new helmets for the second movie and wanted to be prepared. This way (in his mind) he could offer a better solution for LFL by making white ABS helmets in this new way, instead of the paint flaked HDPE versions he made for them the first time around.

The reason HDPE was used for the background (stunt) helmets was because it was the only way to consistently successfully remove them from the molds. And since they were only meant to be background pieces, it didn't matter that they wouldn't hold the paint very well or look like crap upon close inspection.

The mold for the hero and TIE faces were altered in key areas to facilitate easier removal when formed in ABS."

 

Here are some more pics of this "improved" style helmet.

 

Sorry for the long explanation, but I didn't know how to say all that in a less lengthy way.

 

As far as the detail in the teardrops go, they are included on all the stunt/standard style helmets and is actual part of the sculptural detail. It's not a bubble though.

Also, they do not appear on the hero faceplates, which ultimately is where AA's helmet is derived from, even if it has been heavily modified since 1976.

[trooperstormy]

dang Gino. detailed explanation. Thanks!

[GINO]

Good thing I had the fortune of molding a real ANH helmet so that I could later replicate that detail faithfully.

 

Dan, I don't have a problem with you or this new helmet at all.

But this is the kind of statement that sparks controversy and arguments.

 

To say you replicated that detail faithfully implies that your detail matches the detail on the original helmets exactly. We both know it doesn't at all. What you have done is used artistic license to over embellish that detail in a very idealized way, much like the rest of the helmet is altered to be very idealized.

 

There's nothing wrong with it being idealized, but it is confusing to other people when they hear "faithfully replicated" and it sends the wrong message even if that is not your intention.

[tk0000[501st]]

There are a lot of god points in this thread. Thanks for all these comments.

[Smitty]

Thanks for the insight and a great explanation Gino!

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Thanks for the insight and a great explanation Gino!

 

And thanks everyone for keeping it civil! It's wonderful not to have to edit posts or suspend members.

[BactaReality]

I'm a little confused. Gino, you stated that AA's helmet was derived from those prototype skins, or a hero lid? Those pics you posted have that tear detail, so if he used those, then the detail was cleaned up or what?

[GINO]

I'm a little confused. Gino, you stated that AA's helmet was derived from those prototype skins, or a hero lid? Those pics you posted have that tear detail, so if he used those, then the detail was cleaned up or what?

 

There is no teardrop detail in those photos. The higher res photos clearly show it not being there on numerous examples of these helmet in people's collections. Also I have a friend who owns one.

 

Also, we should not call them "prototype" because they came AFTER ANH in AA's attempt to make the helmets look more interesting (to him) and make them easier to make in a production setting.

The "hose-back" helmet molds were made from vac formed pieces AA had leftover sometime after ANH production and before ESB production. It is clear by looking at the hose-back face that it was derived from the hero style faceplate (which even on the film helmets, does not have the teardrop detail).

It can be further speculated that the original mold that produced the stunt/standard style helmets for ANH were modified into what became the hero helmet molds as the hero troopers and tie pilots were the last to be made for the production.

So when AA decided to make his recent stunt/standard helmets, he had to reverse engineer the face from the hero style hose-back face, and do his best to turn it into the stunt/standard style. That is why so many details are wrong. The extreme lack of undercut at the neck area, the cleaned up over sharpened teeth area, etc.. just to name a few. Don't get me started on the cap/back, and ears.

Then when he made his recent hero helmets, he had to make a new mold dedicated to hero, and modify it back to hero as best he could.

[Mr Laws]

Dan, I don't have a problem with you or this new helmet at all.

But this is the kind of statement that sparks controversy and arguments.

 

To say you replicated that detail faithfully implies that your detail matches the detail on the original helmets exactly. We both know it doesn't at all. What you have done is used artistic license to over embellish that detail in a very idealized way, much like the rest of the helmet is altered to be very idealized.

 

There's nothing wrong with it being idealized, but it is confusing to other people when they hear "faithfully replicated" and it sends the wrong message even if that is not your intention.

Works for me.

[GINO]

Dan, I don't have a problem with you or this new helmet at all.

But this is the kind of statement that sparks controversy and arguments.

 

To say you replicated that detail faithfully implies that your detail matches the detail on the original helmets exactly. We both know it doesn't at all. What you have done is used artistic license to over embellish that detail in a very idealized way, much like the rest of the helmet is altered to be very idealized.

 

There's nothing wrong with it being idealized, but it is confusing to other people when they hear "faithfully replicated" and it sends the wrong message even if that is not your intention.

 

Works for me.

 

Cool.

[Star Wars Helmets]

There is no teardrop detail in those photos. The higher res photos clearly show it not being there on numerous examples of these helmet in people's collections. Also I have a friend who owns one.

 

Also, we should not call them "prototype" because they came AFTER ANH in AA's attempt to make the helmets look more interesting (to him) and make them easier to make in a production setting.

The "hose-back" helmet molds were made from vac formed pieces AA had leftover sometime after ANH production and before ESB production. It is clear by looking at the hose-back face that it was derived from the hero style faceplate (which even on the film helmets, does not have the teardrop detail).

It can be further speculated that the original mold that produced the stunt/standard style helmets for ANH were modified into what became the hero helmet molds as the hero troopers and tie pilots were the last to be made for the production.

So when AA decided to make his recent stunt/standard helmets, he had to reverse engineer the face from the hero style hose-back face, and do his best to turn it into the stunt/standard style. That is why so many details are wrong. The extreme lack of undercut at the neck area, the cleaned up over sharpened teeth area, etc.. just to name a few. Don't get me started on the cap/back, and ears.

Then when he made his recent hero helmets, he had to make a new mold dedicated to hero, and modify it back to hero as best he could.

 

Much of what Gino says is correct - although its worth pointing out that some is conjecture, although his conjecture is based on a significant amount of research he, myself and a number of others have done over the years.

 

The chronology as I see it was therefore:

 

1) Stunt helmets made in crappy HDPE. No payment of contract from Lucafilm (or even the knowledge of what the “production” was). Hence there was no wastage. Everything was used no matter how badly formed or warped the helmets were. Initially these were to have been made in a white material but only HDPE could provide the undercuts necessary so they continued with that, AA spray painting the helmets himself next to his cars in the rear of the factory using his car spray rig. Much of the forming was done on his rear vac-forming machine which was used for his Garden Fixtures (also made from HDPE).

 

2) The vac-forming of the 56 HDPE Stunts caused significant damage to the extremities of the moulds which were not intended for such a quick and (relatively)high volume run. The mould used to heat up during forming and this made vac forming more difficult. However due to the time pressures of making the Stunt helmets in time they were forced to rush the helmets causing further damage as they often had to be cut from the moulds.

 

3) As the weeks go by, LFL (now engaged directly)asks him to form the armour as well as some other helmets. Fiberglass casts of 2 US Airforce/Navy pilots provided, which form the basis of the X-Wing, RFT, DS Gunner, Imp Guard"

 

4) At the same time, LFL requests 6 "close-up" Stormtrooper helmets and is prepared to pay more for them. AA perseveres with ABS and despite high failure rate produces 6 "Hero" helmets from white ABS. However, in advance of this the moulds were cleaned up and repaired following the damage from the 56 stunts. Apart from the obvious things, there are numerous differences between the Stunt and Hero faces, some due to the modifications made, others partially due to the different materials employed.

 

5) Its likely at this point that the detail in the tear was removed since it does not appear on either the Hero or TIE/ATAT helmet faces. I’m due to look over an original TIE helmet soon so will double check the insides of the cheek to see if there is any evidence of the oval but from what I recall there is not.

 

6) Following the success of Star Wars, some time in 1978/79 AA revisits the Stormtrooper helmet producing the “Serrated Neck” helmet mistakenly called the prototype. Cutting the back section (due to damage?) away from the cap/Back section he fabricates a new “U” section from aluminium and hosing.

 

7) When he started production again in 2003(?) he retrieved his moulds and readied them for usage. As to what state these were in none of us knows. However we all agree that the moulds were significantly different from the state they were in when he started to make the first Stunts in 1976, although perhaps more like they were when he made the hero’s.

 

So turning my attention to Dan’s new helmet - I think its great that there’s another quality helmet available. I think adding the tear oval is a unique idea and as a very accomplished prop maker, Dan’s done a great job with the helmet.

 

I concur with Gino’s assessment about the extent the oval exists. Certainly in the numerous original Stormtrooper helmets Ive handled it has not been as pronounced as others may have suggested. The following photo of two different helmet tears one form the inside the other from the outside should illustrate that.

 

 

However that’s not to underrate Dan’s helmet, just to offer some detail on this specific attribute.

 

I’m going away so will not be able to comment further for a few days but am pleased that this topics back on track - and in good spirits

 

Cheers

 

Jez

[VacTrooper]

every time i look at this topic, i learn more and more.

 

it's pretty cool history, here.

[TK-4224[501st]]

jez

nice pics

thanks

they´re showing some very nice details

[elkamino]

This is like the History Channel on roids...I am loving this information.

[nice-biscuit]

Excellent detail and extremely informative. I'm also glad it hasn't turned into a bun fight.

[firebladejedi[TK]]

Thanks Jez for posting pictures. The only way to back up information is by using pictures, anything else is merely hearsay

[Jumpin Jax]

Jumpin Jax, like usual your close connection to matt really shows you lack of interest in the actual topic, rather

than beating up your "oldest foe" Gino!

i know,i know he also isn´t always completly nice...

BUT

remember? he wasn´t offensive...

actually he was nice....

maybe you need to rethink a couple of things...

 

let it go, Jax... this thread isn´t the right playground for those old stories!

Rocko, I will always, of my own volition, take people to task that make absolute claims of accuracy backed up by no one with the sole intent of slamming someone else's work. The old stories repeat themselves because the same dialog comes up again and again, and the joke here is that DAN( whom the thread is about)didn't make a single claim. But MAN the hater had to speak

Matt doesn't even feature into it anymore. Never made a dime off the guy, never will.

Yeah I have seen for years how people get a burr in their fur whenever two people differ instead of being good little automatons, and the loudest is always the bad guy; not the liar.

I'll be it, doesn't hurt my feelings.

He was offensive, rocko, just not to you. That's what people in this hobby care about: Well yeah maybe that hideous or dishonest thing is going on, but how does that affect me?

Perhaps I will one day not care about anything, or call anyone on their behavior; but that's not growing up, it's called selling out.

I'm an artist who makes the effort to be better and expect it of others, no matter how many times I am disappointed, I will not give in.

Sorry, just that darn ethics thing

[TK Goatee[TK]]

Very good topic about Helmets. Extremely informative. I had so many questions and they have all been answered.

This helped a lot. Thank you