ROTJ CRL Dilemma.....What should I do?

[sylverbard[TK]]

OK. Anybody making a suit for 501st approval has free access to the CRL. Anybody making a suit different from that CRL and expecting it to get approved deserves to be unhappy.

 

Screen shots of screen used armour count. Promo shots do not. Concept shots do not. Extra features that don't appear in he actual movie don't count.

 

So, if you are making a suit, and you have a screen capture without holsters, a detanator , or overlaps, fine. People got dressed badly. The continuity people on set failed. The armourers rushed it and never thought for a second that it would be noticed.

 

The CRL is a recipe for a iconic rotj suit. A suit that has a td because most did.

 

It's not your fault as a suit puller if the people buying your suit aren't following the recipe. Their fault. My butcher isn't to blame when I screw up a steak.

 

Inner over outer looks dumb, shows a seam from the sides instead of smooth lines and functionally is a point of being snagged on things.

 

If the TD is actually a push button distributor for two or three small explosives, they'd all have them so a missing one or is just an error. Get approved with one and take it off for non canon troops. Or, like shore troopers have a b and c, petition the LMO or the DL here to add a second basic approval without one. Do you not supply a TD with kits? We don't have a clause for Mr no stripes for anh suits but I'm sure people have a second helmet sans tube stripes.

[JSmails[501st]]

Yes SOME of the TKs incorrectly hold the E11 with their right hand but the VAST majority hold it correctly as the director wanted it for uniformity.

 

I'd bet it's 10:1. It's not even close.

 

Additionally, in order to draw your E11, you need to reach across your body and pull it out with your left hand as it goes in the holster backwards.

 

I can pull screen caps of each scene and we'll count how many are left and how many are right. It's not worth doing as it won't be close.

 

When TK's are placed as the director wanted, for uniformity, they were instructed to hold with their left. Death Star hangar. Luke's escort on Endor. The only time actors are holding blasters with their right hands, and it's a vast minority, is when they are on Endor after and during fight scenes. When a director wasn't worrying about continuity. The guy Solo flips, I'm sure, was told to hold Solo's blaster with his right hand to do the stunt correctly.

 

TD's and holsters is how they wanted the ROTJ TK to appear as evidenced by the Death Star scene etc.

 

They could have a sub-CRL for Endor troopers that as soon as you weather your armor, you can choose whether you want the TD or holster.

 

When there are official, paid, LFL events, they are going to look at every part of your costume anyway. If they want a TD and holster, and you don't have one, they'll just pass you over.

 

Official LFL events are few and far between and only a select few get to do them. I don't think that part is worth worrying about.

 

For EIB and Centurion, I think how the costume is put together should absolutely matter. Not the internal strapping, just the external what everyone can see. For approval, a TK should be able to have his forearms attached outer covering inner. For the higher statuses? No way. The forearms were built inner over outer. How can a TK be a centurion when I can take any screen cap and point out that difference? There should be NO differences.

 

These are my opinions, of course, and are subject to change.

 

 

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[sskunky]

There seems to be a lot of personal opinion here being touted as truth. <br><br>

I.e. The producer wanted this the director wanted that etc. How do you know this? Have you spoken to the producers or directors personally? I'm not bashing you for having an opinion but trying to state these opinions as fact is wrong and this is when the waters begin to get muddy through non facts being stated as fact. <br>

I have posted many pics of troopers on set with different configurations not just promo shots. Also shots of actual production costume dept. These things didn't just disappear when they walked on set. <br><br>

Now don't get me wrong as I'm sure some of you have done your homework but please let's stick to actual facts and not what you think are facts. <br><br>

ANH suits are as accurate as can be now because CFO posted all the archive pics in the public domain for all to see. Those are used extensively to accurize armour and helmet assembly. Strapping and rivet positions and sizes etc. Do you see all those on screen shots? No. I rest my case.

[JSmails[501st]]

The reason we can say the director wanted it that way is because that is what ended up on film. In the hangar scene, every single TK is holding his E11 in his left hand. That's not an accident.

 

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Each and every TK in that scene has a TD and a holster. Again, not an accident. It's how they wanted it.

 

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And

 

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Next is the capture of Luke on Endor. Three TK's this time. All left hand, all TD, all holstered.

 

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TD as they walk away.

 

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Finally Endor.

 

On Endor, when in closed groups, the TKs hold with their left. When they are outside in large groups surrounding the rebels, they all hold right. So there are more holding right than I had originally thought, but the predominant theme is, everyone holds left or everyone holds right. It's definitely instructed.

 

Looking at the surrounding the rebels part, so many TKs don't have holsters. They have TDs for the most part, and when you see a TK without a TD, you can be pretty sure that actor is going to be on his back after a stunt soon enough.

 

In conclusion, rivets, especially for the higher levels. TD, required. Holster, required unless you are going to dirty up the armor and make an Endor trooper. Then it's hit or miss for a holster.

 

But for simplicity, I could see the URL just using the hangar scene for the costume requirements for ROTJ and that's fine too. But you have to allow rivets at all levels and have the inside over the outside construction at the higher levels.

 

Just my opinion of course.

 

 

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Edited March 14, 2022 by gmrhodes13
link removed no longer working

[sylverbard[TK]]

There seems to be a lot of personal opinion here being touted as truth. <br><br>

I.e. The producer wanted this the director wanted that etc. How do you know this? Have you spoken to the producers or directors personally? I'm not bashing you for having an opinion but trying to state these opinions as fact is wrong and this is when the waters begin to get muddy through non facts being stated as fact. <br>

I have posted many pics of troopers on set with different configurations not just promo shots. Also shots of actual production costume dept. These things didn't just disappear when they walked on set. <br><br>

Now don't get me wrong as I'm sure some of you have done your homework but please let's stick to actual facts and not what you think are facts. <br><br>

ANH suits are as accurate as can be now because CFO posted all the archive pics in the public domain for all to see. Those are used extensively to accurize armour and helmet assembly. Strapping and rivet positions and sizes etc. Do you see all those on screen shots? No. I rest my case.

Unfortunately your on set photos mean nothing. How do we know the guy putting tds on each belt wasn't just over there to the right? Or that a photo on set wasn't just a lighting check or camera focus check or slider check while costumes were still sorting things out?

 

The pics of rivets could be pics from the shop before the memo came out saying lose the rivets.

 

Unless you , we, want a multi tiered multi variation rotj suit crl it's safer to make things to the LCD and MCDF and just coach people to follow the CRL for basic approval then do whatever they want after. Paint the armour teal, or pink. Take the TD off. Lose the holster. Just accept it will not be suitable for some troops.

[sskunky]

Whatever.

[sskunky]

Unfortunately your on set photos mean nothing. How do we know the guy putting tds on each belt wasn't just over there to the right? Or that a photo on set wasn't just a lighting check or camera focus check or slider check while costumes were still sorting things out?

 

How do you know this? Again were you there? Have you watched the film? It's apparent on screen too.

 

The pics of rivets could be pics from the shop before the memo came out saying lose the rivets.

 

Really? Have you actually seen any screen used suits? I have shown at least 5 different suits at different times before during and after filming.

So I find this statement hard to swallow.

 

Unless you , we, want a multi tiered multi variation rotj suit crl it's safer to make things to the LCD and MCDF and just coach people to follow the CRL for basic approval then do whatever they want after.

 

This makes mockery of the whole CRL

 

 

Paint the armour teal, or pink. Take the TD off. Lose the holster. Just accept it will not be suitable for some troops.

 

 

 

 

Wtf!

Edited December 27, 2016 by sskunky

[sylverbard[TK]]

 

 

Really? Have you actually seen any screen used suits? I have shown at least 5 different suits at different times before during and after filming.

 

Did you take those pictures yourself? Can I see the date and time stamps from the analog film back on your negs? Or imprinted by the Polaroid camera used for continuity? I doubt it. Irrelevant.

 

CRLs are recipes for idealized costumes, Not guidelines to perfect inner and outer faithful reproductions. There are, unarguably, many costume facts available here on FISD that do not appear in the CRL.

 

If you write a proposal, with screen shot evidence only, for the DL, and he agrees, he can propose an alteration of the CRL, and Grandfathering of existing costumes, to the LMO, and if he , or the next one, agrees, it will be changed. Simple.

 

That's the process. Use it, or not. You asked for opinions, you got some, ball now in your court if you think it's worth changing. What do the other rotj vendors think?

 

Otherwise, it's 100% up to each costumer to build to the CRL specs. If they ignore them, and don't get approved, that's their fault 100%.

[sskunky]

What do other ROTJ vendors think? As I and TM are the only two offering it to the 501st we are in agreement.

I don't need metadata to tell me that the pics I posted are of armour in preproduction wardrobe and in collections many years after.

 

 

You are obviously not up for being educated by the the vendors of armour and helmets that supply the 501st and will continue to deny even though solid proof has been supplied by the two vendors who make rotj armour and helmets.

Are you really in belief that they put rivets on the armour before filming then removed them for filming the re applied them back after filming because that's what you're saying. It's quite ridiculous when you read back what you are saying here.

I will continue to assemble armour how I know it was done originally. I will give customers who want me to assemble armour for them the choice of how it was done originally or how the 501st think it was done.

 

 

I asked for opinions and thought they would be constructive rather than dismissive and hypothetical.

Edited December 27, 2016 by sskunky

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

The fact the shoulder bridges should be secured to the chestplate with rivets, or if you really want to start on the wording, by visible fasteners (this way you cover the guys who will inevitably want to overthink things), is a no brainer to me. There are plenty of pics showing those rivets, wether before or after the shooting of the film. And even if they are not like 4K close-ups pics of the bridges, if you have a minimum of brain and working pair of eyes it's pretty obvious.

Even the simple fact of understanding how the whole suits were assembled together leads to this end. The ROTJ armors use several pop rivets in various other places, wether it's for the sniper knee plate, for the belt, the ammo pack on the thigh, the holster, ...

[troopermaster]

Unfortunately your on set photos mean nothing. How do we know the guy putting tds on each belt wasn't just over there to the right? Or that a photo on set wasn't just a lighting check or camera focus check or slider check while costumes were still sorting things out?

 

The pics of rivets could be pics from the shop before the memo came out saying lose the rivets.

 

Unless you , we, want a multi tiered multi variation rotj suit crl it's safer to make things to the LCD and MCDF and just coach people to follow the CRL for basic approval then do whatever they want after. Paint the armour teal, or pink. Take the TD off. Lose the holster. Just accept it will not be suitable for some troops.

Is this guy for real?

 

All the photographic evidence has been presented yet you choose to discredit them because it goes against what your precious staff has once again got wrong. This is not a game. There are no winners or losers. Just simply rectify the CRL and job done.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

So where does this leave us? I read through this entire thread and am not 100% sure if you still want changes to the CRL or not? I think most concerns were answered, but I am not 100% sure.

 

From what I read, the CRL already allows rivets, the TD for many reasons stated will remain, I can see the holster becoming optional, but would prefer to watch the movie again for myself. I am not sure I saw anything definitive on construction, but am happy to be wrong.

 

Mark (sskunky), pictures aside, what would your recommend textually be changed on the existing CRL? Again, with the knowledge that the 501st does not have a goal - across all costumes, not just stormtroopers - to replicate flubs, one-offs, mistakes, etc. which is different from pure prop-replication builders.

 

http://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:TK_rotj

[sskunky]

Hi Deatrin

 

I'd like the CRL higher levels to reflect the original construction as well. I dont see why it's ok to have rivets for basic clearance then if people want to have higher clearance they have to lose them? That means I have to keep replacing trooper shoulder straps at either my or their expense.

There should be one white rivet on the front and secured with Velcro at the back for all levels. There should be no flat ends at all on ROTJ even for basic clearance as they are not ROTJ with flat ends.

 

 

I quote.

Shoulder Straps are securely mounted in front and may free float in back. They may be affixed with rivets, Velcro, or adhesive.

 

For level two certification (if applicable):

No visible rivets are allowed.

Shoulder straps do not have a flat surface at the ends.

Straps are ribbed 100%.

For level three certification (if applicable):

These are affixed in the front (no snaps, rivets or brads are visible).

These are affixed in the back (no snaps, rivets or brads are visible).

 

I get why overlaps should be outer over inner for better appearance but this clearly wasn't the case on a lot of troopers on set. I can accept this as a general rule.

The TD should be optional on Endor weathered troooers.

And holsters should be optional too.

 

If it makes it easier you could have Deathstar clearance and Endor clearance. After all these were on screen and we seem to have stormtroopers and sandtroopers for ANH. Why not for ROTJ?

 

In any case all GMLs and people with the power to pass troopers in all garrisons should have knowledge on the CRLs. I understand CRLs are recipes for idealised costumes but you should not get penalised for being screen accurate. It should be looked at as a bonus. I have had many troopers get turned down for clearance due to rivets on the shoulder straps. I assume they must be going for level 2 or higher but the rest of their costume is at a level 3 quality yet they are being turned down for rivets. That's my main gripe.

 

 

 

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[Daetrin[Admin]]

Hi Mark,

 

1. Rivets -> 100% agree with you. I can own getting this change started.

2. Overlap -> I get what you're saying. I'd like to look at the movie again honestly, as sometimes what you "see" in the movie isn't 1:1 to the prop, e.g. detail is lost. It's quite possible it is not as bad (e.g. looking) as some think.

3. TD -> Again, let me look at the movie. I think there is agreement on an "Endor" version of the suit, and this may fit in.

 

Speaking of which, your thought to have clearance for an Endor vs. Death Star makes sense. Biker scouts are the same way - clean Death Star OR dirty Endor.

 

In the beginning, there actually was only 1 CRL to encompass all 3 films, and now there are 4. Even if it doesn't merit its own CRL, I can't see any reason not to offer it as a valid variant.

 

So far, I'm not hearing anything unreasonable, or not worth considering. The rivets for sure could be changed easily enough.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Oh, and WRT to the GMLs...there are several ways to get the word out:

 

1. Post in the GML area of the 501st boards that the change is coming, and also when it does come.

2. FISD newsletter (goes out to 1000's of people)

3. Announcement on this forum

4. FISD Attaches - get them to get the word out on the ground too.

 

If we do make an Endor ROTJ, then I think we can also offer a prize to the first trooper who fits the bill.

 

Again, I really appreciate you going to bat for these changes, and apologize for somehow missing this thread earlier.

[sskunky]

Thanks Daetrin

 

I feel like I'm finally getting heard without just been seen as a trouble maker.

I cannot stress enough how passionate I am about my costumes and whilst not being a 501st member, I am proud to have my costumes represented within the 501st. I have spent the last 7 years creating what I consider very accurate to what's seen on screen costumes. I have made many changes and improvements over the years and never afraid to accept that I get it wrong sometimes but always willing to update and change things that were not correct. That's all I've asked of the 501st.

 

 

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[JSmails[501st]]

I'm glad this is getting resolved. The wording of the CRL in regards to rivets is just weird. Rivets should be the only way to attach to the chest armor for ROTJ.

 

I also think visual assembly, the things you see on screen, should be correct for the higher levels above basic. Not internal strapping that isn't seen, but obvious stuff like the inner over outer forearms.

 

The flat parts on the shoulder bridges cannot be allowed for ROTJ. I've never seen any evidence of the flat part being on any ROTJ costume.

 

I'm not sure I'm behind "No TD" and "No holster" for an Endor variant. Sure, there are at least a few stunt men that didn't wear either, but that was because they were going to be flipped onto their back onscreen. The VAST majority of endor TK's had TD's and holsters.

 

But then again, it's not like those guys were a one-off mistake like Mr No Stripes. It was the stuntmen that didn't wear TD's. It certainly wasn't a mistake. It was a safety thing I am sure.

 

I absolutely know Mark puts his CFO armor together as screen accurately as possible to the best of his ability based on his extensive knowledge. Why anyone would have to mod their CFO armor to be less accurate to get approved is beyond my comprehension.

 

Thanks for moving forward with this Daetrin! It should bring some closure, and sanity, to the often neglected and overlooked ROTJ TK CRL.

 

 

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[Colin1138[TK]]

Re: the no holster and/or Thermal det issue.

 

While I agree their exclusion are most likely the result of the stunt guys not wanting to huirt themselves, the same can be said of the Sandies who are packless in the Docking Bay scene in ANH. And we still allow packless Sandies. IMO,..if it's seen on screen,it should be considered as a clearable option.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

We only recently allowed packless sandies, and it is still a contentious point as they are more background characters and it's a major element of what you remember seeing on screen. Just because it's seen on screen doesn't mean it's an option. Mr. No Stripes being but one example.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Yeah, while the words screen accurate are used to describe the 501st by many different agencies/people it doesn't apply to the costumes governed by the FISD. 

 

Other costumes can be done to screen accuracy with less consternation because the Stormtroopers, and really, to an extent any Imperial Troop costume (I'd say Sandtroopers are the exception) are a representation of a military uniform and as a result, standardized appearance across the globe is a very seriously desired goal of the Stormtrooper CRLs.

 

A good number of our members have spent time in a branch of the military and can instantly relate to this idea. Many more likely have not and for them it may be a pill described as a little painful to swallow. All of that aside though, as Daetrin mentioned above, screen accurate tends to imply that if it is seen on screen, it is approvable, and that is a slippery slope that instantly degrades uniformity.

[Lichtbringer]

 to an extent any Imperial Troop costume (I'd say Sandtroopers are the exception) are a representation of a military uniform and as a result, standardized appearance across the globe is a very seriously desired goal of the Stormtrooper CRLs.

 

A good number of our members have spent time in a branch of the military and can instantly relate to this idea. Many more likely have not and for them it may be a pill described as a little painful to swallow. 

 

Sorry, but that argument didn´t work for me.

 

Even standardized doesn´t mean all have the same stuff or look the same at the same time. New stuff comes and spreads slowly, not everyone gets it immediatly after the testing time. We (airborne) used standard stuff (not the specialized we needed, general stuff like rainprotection) that arrived in other units much later (a few years after me my small brother joined transportation and still got the old stuff).

How much more difference would be in a multi million soldier army spread over a whole galaxy.

 

And why should Sandtroopers get a exception that others don´t?

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Thanks Daetrin

 

I feel like I'm finally getting heard without just been seen as a trouble maker.

I cannot stress enough how passionate I am about my costumes and whilst not being a 501st member, I am proud to have my costumes represented within the 501st. I have spent the last 7 years creating what I consider very accurate to what's seen on screen costumes. I have made many changes and improvements over the years and never afraid to accept that I get it wrong sometimes but always willing to update and change things that were not correct. That's all I've asked of the 501st.

 

 

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No worries at all - I'll watch through it today as there is no substitute for a recent viewing and will post by tonight.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Sorry, but that argument didn´t work for me.

 

Even standardized doesn´t mean all have the same stuff or look the same at the same time. New stuff comes and spreads slowly, not everyone gets it immediatly after the testing time. We (airborne) used standard stuff (not the specialized we needed, general stuff like rainprotection) that arrived in other units much later (a few years after me my small brother joined transportation and still got the old stuff).

How much more difference would be in a multi million soldier army spread over a whole galaxy.

 

And why should Sandtroopers get a exception that others don´t?

When the US Army makes changes to uniforms and equipment, the intent or the end goal is that they are all going to have the same equipment and uniform and will all look the same.

 

Specialized equipment is exactly that, specialized.

 

Sandtroopers are an exception because of how the MEPD founded separately from the FISD.  They specifically went with the screen accurate/prop-replication route that depicts a specific "character" among the Stormtroopers in a dirty and gritty field environment where they would have some different equipment being used by different Troopers dependent upon their assigned tasks - ie, a commo specialist would have a radio/backpack, a heavy weapons specialist would have a heavy blaster and any support equipment that goes along with it, a medic would be carrying medical supplies and equipment.

 

A "standard" Stormtrooper - white armor, blaster of some type, holster, TD should look nearly identical to every other one around them.

[sskunky]

I thought we were talking about Star Wars here and not the real world army? Just because members were in the forces shouldn't mean that the rules of the real world army apply in the Star Wars universe.

I think we are diverting here and making excuses for mistakes made in the CRL.

Also props of Star Wars were based on WWII and other historic costumes and weapons not modern day uniformity.

In historic warfare soldiers pretty much used and wore what they could and many variations appeared. There were certainly similarities in their uniforms but not identical by any means.

Just my 2c worth.

Edited December 29, 2016 by sskunky

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Stay on target everyone...your getting off on a tangent from the main discussion.