ROTJ CRL Dilemma.....What should I do?

[sskunky]

Hi guys,

 

I am getting more and more frustrated at the CRL for ROTJ.

 

I make and sell ROTJ armour cast from an original suit. 

 

Now, when I assemble the armour for customers I assemble it how it should be done and screen accurate right down to rivets original Newey poppers. I have spent countless hours researching how the original armour is supposed to be put together, what hardware was used, what materials were used. It took me 5 years to find a suitably accurate polypro belt to offer with my armour. I make from scratch everything. I vacuum form my armour, make Bubble lenses, I cast paint and assemble ANH and ROTJ mic tips, strapping and my own exclusive CFO decals.

 

Yet I am getting an increasing amount of customers getting refused 501st clearance because....... " they have the shoulder straps riveted on, they should be glued..... "you don't have a detonator"........" You need a holster"....... "Your legs and arms don't have the correct overlaps" etc, etc,.........

 

What should I do? I have presented solid proof to the 501st...... I have sent many photo's proving the shoulder straps were riveted on, I have sent photos of troopers on endor without Detonators or holsters..... Not just 1 or 2, a lot... and proof that the armour was assembled with overlaps anywhich way. But I get shot down by the top brass for causing trouble? REALLY?......NO, it's just that they cannot admit they are wrong.... I am then told that if I want change then I have to join the 501st to be heard and get people to listen......????? Are the 501st that short sighted and pretentious that you won't listen to fact unless I am in your "club"? because that's how it looks to me.

 

This is what I do. I have dedicated my life to bringing Troopers the best most accurate armour and helmets all cast from originals.

 

How much proof do you need? If you cannot see it,  then why does it matter because I guarantee the public won't notice a white rivet on a white shoulder strap connected to white armour.... But it's enough for you to turn down a screen accurate stormtrooper costume? Surely the smiles on childrens faces is more important than the ego of the GML? Admit you are wrong.......

 

Here is some photographic proof of how the armour was assembled for the very troopers you are emulating. Baring in mind that most of these original ROTJ stormtroopers will not get into the 501st based on their inaccurate costumes.

 

Both myself and Paul aka TM ( sorry to drag you in bud)  have sent pictures of screen caps and exhibition armour and helmets to the decision makers but they still will not budge. WHY????

 

I am the first to admit fault and I am quick to adapt and change things to reflect this. As soon as you know it all you may as well give up.......Why can't the 501st?

 

I am not starting this thread as a flame war or just to start trouble but as it affects me and my customers directly it has to be bought up. A civil discussion is what I am trying to have here.

 

I have asked to present pics of more than one suit so here they are.........

 

 

here are some pics of "REAL" armour.

 

Proof of rivets.......

 

 

A different suit with rivets......

 

Oh, another different suit with rivets

 

Costume department using rivets......

 

A nice pic of ROTJ TK's without holsters.

 

 

 

 

 

ROTJ TK's on Endor without Detonators or holsters......

 

 

Rather grainy but overlaps the "wrong way"

 

Thigh armour inner over outer........."Wrong"

 

Arms inner over outer........

Rivets on shoulder straps.

 

More overlaps the "wrong way"....

 

Original drawings of how the armour was to be assembled with notes on the rivets on the shoulder straps.

 

 

 

 

Do I have to give my customers a choice of a screen accurate ROTJ assembled armour and helmet or a not quite screen accurate costume that is accepted by the 501st? This goes against everything I am about but I am being forced in this direction.

 

What's more frustrating is that the only two armourers that supply the 501st with screen accurate ROTJ armour are the ones being criticised and told that they are assembling the armour wrong!

 

WE NEED CHANGE............ 

 

All comments welcome.

[sskunky]

Quoted from the CRL.....

 

"The AM greaves (shins) shall be on the proper legs, with a new cover strip. The cover strip edge faces the inside of the leg. Note: There is a manufacturer defect with the AM greaves (shins) that may cause you to wear the them improperly. Please see the Tutorial titled :"AM armor shins: the proper way to assemble and wear", on the whitearmor.net"

 

 

I am not sure why AM is mentioned as AM is not ROTJ?

 

Also it seems that you are allowed a sterling E11 that is not based upon the MGC to pass but a rivet on the shoulder strap is not allowed? 

 

As I said total madness.....

 

I am more than happy to sit down and go through the CRL with all GMLs who have little understanding of the ROTJ armour and it's construction and get this done right.

Edited December 7, 2016 by sskunky

[Novak Dimon[TK]]

Hi Mark!

I am with you regarding the rivets at the shoulder stripes.

But who ever complained a missing holster? After the actual CLR it is an optional accessory. And there is only mentioned there the overlap method is mandatory for higher levels. No word about the direction.

Perhaps there is a "GML problem" with these points and non with the CLR.

 

Cheers

Christian

Edited December 7, 2016 by Novak Dimon

[sskunky]

One of my customers was pulled up on no detonator and no holster and overlaps the wrong way. Not sure why higher clearance says you "must" have outer over inner when they clearly had them either way on set. What?,  higher clearance than an original screen worn suit? LOL

 

But yes, it could have been yet another over zealous uneducated GML......

Edited December 7, 2016 by sskunky

[Colin1138[TK]]

As a ROTJ TK..(and owner of one of Marks suits for the last 5 years)..I wholeheartenly agree.

Yeah..the ROTJ is the "runt" of the litter...the "least desirable" to some..but thats still no excuse for the CRL to be so...wrong. Ot's a totally valid cossie..yet seems to be treated a bit like a second class citizen.

I don't have a holster. Cleared ok like that..but I was told I need the TD. Its a little thing..but I'd habe preferred none, if only to make the ROTJ stand out a little more from my ANH brethren.

The CRL model isn't even a ROTJ kit for griefs sake..it's a modified ANH. That shouldn't fly IMO.

 

Sent from my R4 unit using Tapatalk

[Novak Dimon[TK]]

One of my customers was pulled up on no detonator and no holster and overlaps the wrong way. Not sure why higher clearance says you "must" have outer over inner when they clearly had them either way on set. What?, higher clearance than an original screen worn suit? LOL

 

But yes, it could have been yet another over zealous uneducated GML......

For the basic approval the butt joint with cover stipe method is allowed.

 

For the (more accurate) Level 2 the CLR says: "[name of the part] use the overlap construction method.

Using the butt joint and cover strips is not allowed."

 

IMHO the direction of the overlap is not important and no reason to refuse approval.

 

After looking at various pictures from ROTJ I think the detonator should be an optional part like the holster.

 

Unfortunately local GML's sometimes have their own interpretation of the CLR... and it is nearly impossible to change their point of view.

[humperdingle]

The detonator, I suppose you could argue that those particular troopers had chucked theirs toward some pesky ewoks.

[Locitus[Admin]]

This was up on discussion in the staff forum a while ago and I thought we had already fixed the CRL. I guess we're too scared of changing the CRL these days that it never got around to.

[sskunky]

For the basic approval the butt joint with cover stipe method is allowed.

 

For the (more accurate) Level 2 the CLR says: "[name of the part] use the overlap construction method.

Using the butt joint and cover strips is not allowed."

 

IMHO the direction of the overlap is not important and no reason to refuse approval.

 

After looking at various pictures from ROTJ I think the detonator should be an optional part like the holster.

 

Unfortunately local GML's sometimes have their own interpretation of the CLR... and it is nearly impossible to change their point of view.

Why for basic clearance is a cover strip allowed? They do NOT have cover strips. You allow this but not a rivet?

This was up on discussion in the staff forum a while ago and I thought we had already fixed the CRL. I guess we're too scared of changing the CRL these days that it never got around to.

 

Unfortunately nothing has changed and my customers are getting the brunt of it.

The detonator, I suppose you could argue that those particular troopers had chucked theirs toward some pesky ewoks.

 

LOL, I guess so...... If this is the case why can't the trooping trooper not have one? they could have used theirs?? LOL

For the basic approval the butt joint with cover stipe method is allowed.

 

For the (more accurate) Level 2 the CLR says: "[name of the part] use the overlap construction method.

Using the butt joint and cover strips is not allowed."

 

IMHO the direction of the overlap is not important and no reason to refuse approval.

 

After looking at various pictures from ROTJ I think the detonator should be an optional part like the holster.

 

Unfortunately local GML's sometimes have their own interpretation of the CLR... and it is nearly impossible to change their point of view.

IYHO the overlap is not important. BUT it seems to be with most GMLs..... GMLs are not supposed interpret a CRL they are supposed to follow it. How can you argue consistency if every GML is allowed to interpret the CRL? That's the argument I get. "We have to have a CRL that reflects consistency not screen accuracy" But it seems only if it suits the GML in charge?

 

As a ROTJ TK..(and owner of one of Marks suits for the last 5 years)..I wholeheartenly agree.

Yeah..the ROTJ is the "runt" of the litter...the "least desirable" to some..but thats still no excuse for the CRL to be so...wrong. Ot's a totally valid cossie..yet seems to be treated a bit like a second class citizen.

I don't have a holster. Cleared ok like that..but I was told I need the TD. Its a little thing..but I'd habe preferred none, if only to make the ROTJ stand out a little more from my ANH brethren.

The CRL model isn't even a ROTJ kit for griefs sake..it's a modified ANH. That shouldn't fly IMO.

 

Sent from my R4 unit using Tapatalk

Yes, a modified ANH suit is not ROTJ and visa versa.

[Locitus[Admin]]

Tell your customers to come here, and better yet, have their GML's come here to so we can set them straight.

[sskunky]

Tell your customers to come here, and better yet, have their GML's come here to so we can set them straight.

I would love to but they are stubborn as hell.

 

I posted this on the UKG forum some time back and was told I was not qualified to comment. 

[Locitus[Admin]]

Some aspects of the on-screen ROTJ will likely never be allowed by the CRL, like missing holsters despite we clearly can see them missing in the move. That is the keep the look unified. Same reason as Mr. Nostripes. But the ROTJ clearly has been out of love for too long, and until recently it seems there were not too many people building the suit for this lack of love to become a problem.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

I whole heartily agree with you Mark however, at this point you may need to consult LFL or Disney. They're setting the standard for what they want to see in public. 3 years ago LFL wouldn't have cared so long as the SW dream was kept alive, Disney is a whole other story and they're cramming their agenda down everyone's throat including LFL, 501st and subsequently at the garrison level. In my garrison, closest to LFL, we're experiencing first hand the "Do's and don'ts" of what were supposed to look like. The joy of dressing up and playing plastic spacemen is slowly slipping from our very fingers. Again, a lot of us are with you on this. 

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

Hi Mark... you keep saying... "they" and "they" as if there is an army of 501st people standing against your ideas. 

 

I'm your LMO or the "top brass" (I'm obviously the top something minus the "b") as you call it. 

 

No one has said one word about issues with the ROTJ CRL to me this term. Maybe you brought it up to the former LMO last year? Not only has no one presented proof to me I have not heard a single peep about this nor has any of the LMO team. 

 

Point blank, if Tim the DL thinks the CRL needs to be changed I'm more than happy to help him update it. At the end of the day its up to him. 

 

Rather than railing against the CRL a more productive approach would be to suggest wording changes that you think would improve the CRL. Otherwise you are just pointing out problems and not providing a solution. 

 

More below... 

 

 

 

 

Yet I am getting an increasing amount of customers getting refused 501st clearance because....... " they have the shoulder straps riveted on, they should be glued..... "you don't have a detonator"........" You need a holster"....... "Your legs and arms don't have the correct overlaps" etc, etc,.........

 

What should I do? I have presented solid proof to the 501st...... I have sent many photo's proving the shoulder straps were riveted on, I have sent photos of troopers on endor without Detonators or holsters..... Not just 1 or 2, a lot... and proof that the armour was assembled with overlaps anywhich way. But I get shot down by the top brass for causing trouble? REALLY?......NO, it's just that they cannot admit they are wrong.... I am then told that if I want change then I have to join the 501st to be heard and get people to listen......????? Are the 501st that short sighted and pretentious that you won't listen to fact unless I am in your "club"? because that's how it looks to me.

 

 

 

 

If I understand correctly the three things you cite are:

• Shoulder straps cannot be riveted. 
• Missing detonator
• Holster is required. 
• Overlaps are the wrong direction

I'll take these things one by one. 

 

Rivets in the Shoulder Straps

 

For basic 501st approval the CRL clearly states that the shoulder straps may be riveted. If someone was denied by their GML, then their GML has not read the CRL. However if the person is applying for Expert Infantry the CRL is wrong but this will not stop someone from getting a costume approved. 

 

 

Missing Detonator 

 

The thing that has always bugged me about the ROTJ CRL is that the photo of the det is an ANH/ESB detonator. 

 

But yes this is required. If the DL and FISD think this should be optional then it can be changed. Personally I think not having one is a costume error like Mr. No Stripes and all ROTJ TKs should have one to look the same. For approval I think you should have one and if you choose not to wear one, then don't. Again... I leave this up to Tim to make the det optional. 

 

Holster Required

 

As you can see in the CRL the holster is optional. If a GML denies someone because of this they're wrong. 

 

 

Overlaps in Wrong Direction

 

There is nothing in the CRL about the direction of overlap. If a GML denied someone for this they were wrong. The CRL does not specify overlap direction. However there is a silly note about the AM shins that should be taken out. A former DL, Tom Gardner, made it his mission for people to assemble AM shins correctly. Most people did not. If Tim's ok with it I'm going to zap that entirely. 

 

Your customer is welcome to email me lmo@501st.com if they want to challenge a GML. I'm happy to review the situation and speak to the GML directly. 

 

I hope this clears things up. 

 

-Eric

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

It isn't really my style to air dirty laundry, but since it is out here on the floor, I'll help Eric since he started picking it up.

 

First thing first - I agree with everything that Eric has said above.  There isn't an army of anyone against anything.

 

Second, the rivet question was brought to the Detachment Staff on behalf of one of your customers due to an EIB approval issue, discussion has been ongoing.  The discussion was last left with me personally saying that I am not opposed to changing the CRL to include the rivets at higher levels - however - I don't do that unilaterally.  There is a Detachment process that must be followed for it to happen.  I also personally said that when (not necessarily if) clear screen-grabs are presented which definitively show that there are rivets on the bridges of the majority of the TKs (not promo shots, not tour suits, not hot toys statues, or crayon drawings on the refrigerator) I will present the proposal (assuming that they are presented while I am the DL) to the Detachment for discussion on making the change, followed by the Detachment vote.  To this date, those pictures have not been brought to me, or any other member of the staff involved in the discussion, that I have been made aware of.

 

Clearly, based on activity within the Detachment already this year, we are not afraid to change the CRLs, as there have been changes made to them.  The notion of being afraid to change the CRL is absurd.  It is a standard which we as a Detachment control.  What is there to be afraid of?  Being hated?  Being wrong?  Most importantly, since we are the 501st Legion who do set our own approval standards at the end of the day it is impossible for us to be wrong.  We can become more hated, but where our CRLs are involved, we cannot by definition be wrong.  This doesn't mean that they cannot or will not be "improved".  

There is an on-going set of discussion threads in the Staff section for CRL review for incorrect photos and poorly worded things like the AM shin note in the ROTJ CRL to be addressed.  None of the changes that occur as a result of that action will change the standards.  They will hopefully clear the mud a bit and make things more easily understood by the masses - to include the GMLs who are by and large the biggest stumbling block to the questions being raised in your post above.

Holster -  ROTJ, Optional, and by and large non-existent in the movie.  Shouldn't be an issue, but if it is, once again I'll refer to the GMLs.  If a GML comes to me and asks me if they should approve a ROTJ TK without a holster, my answer will be:  Yes, read the CRL.

 

Thermal Detonator...  There are more pictures of ROTJ TKs with them in this thread than without them.  ROTJs very own Mr. NoStripes...  (My opinion)  If a GML comes to me and asks if they should approve a ROTJ TK without a detonator, my answer will be:  No, read the CRL.

 

Overlap (GMLs) should not be an issue based on the way that the CRLs are written.  If a GML comes to me and asks me if they should approve a ROTJ TK who has their overlap construction going outer over inner vs inner over outer, my answer will be:  Yes, read the CRL.  

Speaking solely for me.  I can unquestionably state that I have never told you or anyone that in order for you to be heard, that you must join the 501st.  On the contrary, you are recognized as one of - if not the - leading knowledge guys on the planet where this armor is concerned.  Your opinion is meaningful without question, but at the end of the day, we are not a prop-replication club, and simply seeing something on screen does not mean that it belongs in our CRLs.  There are countless instances of missing detonators, no stripes, no drop boxes, no holsters, extra drop boxes, taped parts, missing parts, etc seen on screen in the OT.  Because of what we do, and how and why we do it, we seek the happy balance between seen on-screen and uniform appearance with an emphasis on a uniform appearance.  

I'm happy to answer any questions, and I'm simply waiting for the clear screen captures to begin the process of proposing the change to the CRL to allow for rivets at level 2 and 3 - which GMLs have absolutely nothing at all to do with.  Those are done here at FISD, and here alone.

 

Hopefully this will help you to understand things more clearly.  In the future, if a customer tells you that their GML is giving them grief about approval, direct them to the FISD Detachment Leader and/or the LMO.  GML education is something that we currently enjoy doing, and we're good at it too.

 

Thank you.

 

Tim

[sskunky]

Hi Eric,
The only reason I say" they" and "they" is that I didn't want to name any particular person or Garrison openly in public. 
My post was merely highlighting the problems my customers are having when trying to get clearance. I assemble my armour screen accurately and how it was done originally. This is a problem with people getting clearance. I'll just have to give people the option of screen accurate or 501st acceptable.
From what you are saying there is no problem with screen accurate and it's down to GMls not really knowing what they are looking at. 
I will just point anyone that's having problems to this thread and your post which clearly highlights that it is not the CRL that's wrong. 
Thanks for clearing this up Eric. You are the first person that's done that. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by sskunky

[sskunky]

Thanks Tim. I'll pass anyone that's having a problem your way. 
Just for the record I never said there was an army against me? I also never mentioned your name or said that you told me that I had to join. It was not you. 
Cheers.

Edited December 8, 2016 by sskunky

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Additional point, there isn't any allowance of the use of a particular weapon vs another, as weapons are not a requirement for approval by the Legion.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Thanks Tim. I'll pass anyone that's having a problem your way. <br><br>

Just for the record I never said there was an army against me? I also never mentioned your name or said that you told me that I had to join. It was not you. <br><br>

Cheers.

Thank you Mark. 

 

As the guy sitting in the DL seat though, I hope that you can see how a lot of people might take that statement to mean me.  

[troopermaster]

Both myself and Paul aka TM ( sorry to drag you in bud)  have sent pictures of screen caps and exhibition armour and helmets to the decision makers but they still will not budge. WHY????

I gave up hope on this forum years ago. The FISD staff are casual trooper fans and not really in a position to be writing CRL's - especially when it comes to screen accuracy - which I know is not a 501st priority and I can appreciate that, but at least when details are shown they should be accepted. My advice is to keep on building the armour as you know they should be and screw the CRL's.

 

Good luck

[ukswrath[Staff]]

I gave up hope on this forum years ago. The FISD staff are casual trooper fans and not really in a position to be writing CRL's - especially when it comes to screen accuracy - which I know is not a 501st priority and I can appreciate that, but at least when details are shown they should be accepted. My advice is to keep on building the armour as you know they should be and screw the CRL's.

 

Good luck

 

Then why do you keep coming back?

[JSmails[501st]]

I'm a little late to this but I'll chime in.

 

I'm with Mark and TM on this. The CRL needs to be rewritten for ROTJ.

 

I used to be on the side of "TD Optional" for ROTJ, but when you study it as I have, you come around to the TD should be required.

 

Unlike Mr. No Stripes which was a single helmet, there are plenty of ROTJ without TD's. And plenty without holsters.

 

On the Death Star in ROTJ, every single trooper has a TD and Holster. Every single one. Also, every trooper holds their blaster with their left hand. That should be mentioned in the CRL somewhere. I cringe every time I see a group of TK's taking pics all holding the E11 in their right hands. Ish.

 

So the argument is about Endor. The VAST majority of the TK's on Endor have TD's and holsters.

 

If you break it down, the only TKs without TD's are TK's that are going to be doing a stunt where they end up on their back. Lucas etc. didn't want the stunt men hurt in the fall, so they removed the TD's from those stunt actors.

 

The holster should be optional. While most all TK's on Endor have TD's, there are some that have TD's with no holster. Granted, most of the guys with no holsters and TD's are probably the stuntmen that were going to do stunts later without the TD, but had it on for a running scene.

 

While there are "plenty" of TK's on Endor without the TD, many of those without it could be the same set of armor, same stunt man, in different scenes. A breakdown of the film shows that if you were a stuntman that was going to end up on your back at some point, you didn't wear the TD. But everyone else did. And in non-action scenes( DS hangar, Luke Escort on Endor), all TK's had TD's and holsters.

 

Since we in the 501st aren't really "allowed" to base the costume off a stunt look, like a Vader trying to apply with a Bob Anderson see through helmet, the TD should be required. The only ROTJ TK's that didn't have the TD on were strictly doing stunts.

 

But to the first point, the CRL needs to be rewritten to include rivets at all the levels of accuracy. That's how it was done.

Edited December 24, 2016 by JSmails

[Imperial J[TK]]

You must watch the movie again...there are many troopers that hold their blasters in there right hand.

 

yes, on the death star they are all left handed but they are just mat paintings, but once you get into the battle on endor many of the troopers are right handed (the one han solo hip throws, the one chewy swings into the other trooper, and the one that shoots R2-D2 are just a couple of examples)

 

It is hard to make it a requirement to carry your blaster left handed when half the troopers are right handed

 

And It is also the same in ANH..all the troopers that actually fire their blaster use their right hand.

 

TK/ID-80128

[sskunky]

The sterling is also designed for right handed use.

[troopermaster]

Thermal detonators and holsters should be mandatory. Assembling the armour parts outer over inner should also be mandatory. You have to have some consistency with the armour. Carrying your blaster right or left handed and black or white soles should be optional - in my opinion.