Celebration Europe 2016 Rogue One Stormtrooper Back Pack Build

[mr paul]

Sorry to "derail" but actually I was only responding to an earlier post and providing evidence to back up my statements. Furthermore it was directly related to wearing the R1 TK Pack with your OT TK just like you Mr Paul, more specifically wearing it at an official event. Might not be about building the prop but definitely something on the minds of those who are building them, like myself. Anyways my apologies... Move Along, Move Along.

No worries, It is a hot topic I know. especially as there are no new TK suits on the horizon as of yet. It may be worth opening up that discussion in a separate thread

[SlyFox740[TK]]

We are relying on observations like yours to build a more accurate picture of the range of differences in the frames and other parts as we post them.

...

extra info is most welcome and appreciated and very interesting thank you 

 

SlyFox740,

 

thanks for your observations. Any comments or critiques are most welcome as we want this thread to be the best reference possible for the CE pack. 

...

This thread is not a dictatorial 'done case' / fait accompli, and by publishing on the forum we are hoping to stimulate discussion and further investigations to hopefully corroborate, or refute, our identification of parts - wait until we get to the canvas roll :-). At the end of the process we should hopefully have a reference that can be pinned and act as a definitive build thread.

 

  Great Job finding the correct fishing rod guys, I ordered one as soon as you posted that and got to work on my antenna build.

I noticed on your last post the tubing you used looks rather shiny or gloss black (seen below), where as the one on the CE prop doesn't appear to look that way. Its more flat black like the way an actual electrical cable looks. Also you can take this as you will, it's just my personal opinion but I honestly believe the tubing has a slightly thicker outer diameter than 5mm.

  I agree that the tubing profile stays convex when wrapped and should not collapse into a concave shape. But where it's wrapped around the fishing rod the space between each coil should be approximately the same width as the tube itself. Wrapping the coils this close together while still ending up with the correct amount of coils is key!

I've also noticed already that people are having a bit of trouble getting the wrap the way they want, or they're having some difficulty manipulating the tubing the way that it is on CE Pack anyways.

 

I found that if I ran an additional thinner tuber through the black tube I could get the wrapped part with a decent looking profile. Also I am experimenting with running aluminum wire through the tube so the part where it wraps around the pole will stay in place with the correct profile. 

Another attempt was buying actual black cable wire and pull out the dual,wires inside but this did not work well and I had to abandon the idea. The cable looks better but it would require a lot of work to pull those wires out. 

Just thought to share what I found.

 

Also in the Antenna cable post ireachy said: "As you can see in the pic above mr paul’s v2.0 antenna wraps still need some tidying  :)"  but wrapping the antenna can be difficult to do neatly depending on what type of tubing you're using, some kinds can actually be quite difficult to manipulate the way you want without kinking or collapsing the tube.

 

 Though I found there is one type of tubing in particular that is very easy to manipulate, even after it's wrapped! And it is also Flat Black in color, not gloss black.

 I think I may have actually pinpointed the exact kind of tubing used for the antenna cable, I personally believe it to be the same item as the found part used for the R1 packs. Well I believe I have found the same type and size, the name brand is absolutely hopeless without getting confirmation from the prop maker who actually put the packs together himself. And even he may not know as this tubing often comes on a blank spool with no logos at all, it's a very generic item!

Thankfully even though this type of tubing may be made by several different manufacturers and distributed under many different name brands they're basically all the exact same thing, I feel it's more a matter of the finding correct type and size than brand since it is such a generic item. It would be nice to know and all but it really doesn't matter all that much in the end as they all look exactly the same and you can't visibly tell one brand apart from the next.

 

Before I get to the type of tubing I found I will show my observations;

 

First off, notice the tubing is right next to the CAM buckle on the CE pack, very close if not touching!

 

 

Also if you look very closely you can see that the tubing is the exact same width as the front wall on the CAM buckle not including the bottom base plate. Both of the red "H" shapes I put on the image are identical size copies.

 

When measuring the CAM buckles I found and identified here: http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/38162-rogue-one-stormtrooper-back-pack-part-found/?p=526246 The front wall is about 1/4" or 6mm (not counting the thickness of the base plate)

 

By laying the known found parts I already Identified on top of my iPad Pro I was able to scale the image of the CE Pack. As you can see the tubing seems to be about 1/4" or 6mm in diameter.

 

 

The tubing I have found and identified is Black Latex Surgical Tubing 1/4" O.D. 1/8" I.D. 1/16" W. The "W" stands for Wall Thickness. Black Latex Surgical Tubing is flat black in color just like an electrical cable. It comes in 5mm Diameter too which I also ordered, but as I said before; when wrapping the tubing the space between each coil should be about the same width as the tube itself. And it should still end up with the correct amount of coils, this is important! Surgical Latex Tubing is very easy to manipulate and wrap. It's very soft and stretchy so it's fairly simple to thread it through the eyes of the fishing rod with the help of needle nose pliers. All in all it's VERY easy stuff to work with! Which makes me suspect prop makers in the movie industry may have been using this trick for a while as it is also much cheaper on the budget to buy lengths of tubing than actual cable with real wires in it.

 

 

Notice how the tubing is pinched at the eyes of the fishing rod just like on the CE Pack.

 

 

Latex tubing is VERY stretchy! It's actually the same type used for slingshots but the 5mm kind is used for that purpose. 

Because of this I should mention it is actually possible to collapse latex tubing into a concave shape if stretched & wrapped tight enough.

Though I do not believe the prop maker would purposely deform the wrapped tube if he intended it to look like an electrical cable.

 

 

Here is where I ordered my tubing from, it's more than sufficient length: http://www.ebay.com/itm/190607486059

Edited November 16, 2016 by SlyFox740

[ireachy]

SlyFox,

 

thanks for further analyses of the cable. I'll order some of the surgical tubing and get back to you. Compelling observations.

 

Thanks,

ireachy

[ireachy]

ALICE pack

 

I am not going into exhaustive detail regarding the ALICE pack as it has already been confirmed as a found part, indeed it was one of the first parts of the CE pack to be verified.

 

 

However, there has been some discussion regarding the size of ALICE pack used so there is value in looking at the evidence base for the Large ALICE pack and also points regarding the LC-1 and LC-2 designations, and what, if any bearing these have on the prop.

 

The A.L.I.C.E. system was developed by the U.S. Army during the late 1960s and early 1970s as the standard load carrying system for infantry of that era - All-Purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment - A.L.I.C.E. It replaced the  M-1956 Load-Carrying Equipment (LCE) and M-1967 Modernized Load-Carrying Equipment (MLCE) in 1973.

 

There are 2 components to the system: the fighting load system; and the existence load system. The fighting load was based around a webbing belt and suspenders and designed to be carried by infantry into combat, and at all times. The existence load system was supplementary to the fighting load and was designed to carry additional equipment that a soldier would require i.e. consists of items other than those in the individual fighting load which are required to sustain or protect the infantry rifleman, which may be necessary for the infantry rifleman's increased personal and environmental protection, and which the infantry rifleman normally would not carry. When possible, the individual existence load items are transported by means other than man-carry. Otherwise both the fighting and existence loads are carried by the infantry rifleman. Individual existence load items are usually carried in the field pack (Wikiepedia, 2016). The medium and large field packs are part of the existence load system.

 

Again from Wikiepedia (2016): 

Field Pack (medium) - The field pack is made of water repellent treated nylon duck and webbing, spacer fabric, and metal hardware. It can be used with or without the LC-1 Field Pack Frame. The main compartment closes by means of a drawstring secured by a plastic cord clamp. A radio pocket is located against the back on the inside. The size of the pack may be decreased for smaller loads by means of three para-cord ties, stitched to the inside bottom of the pack, and three metal D-rings located directly below the internal radio pocket. Three pockets on the outside, with strap and buckle adjustable closures and with snap fasteners for quick access, are provided for miscellaneous items. The top flap has a pocket with a hook and pile fastener tape sealed closure. Equipment hangers are located above each outside pocket and on each side. Drainage eyelets are provided in the bottom of the main compartment and the outside pockets. An envelope pocket is located at the top, back of the pack and padded with spacer cloth, into which the field pack frame is inserted when the field pack is used on the field pack frame. Buckles and straps at each side near the bottom are used for anchoring the field pack to the field pack frame. Two rectangular wire loops located at the top back of the field pack and D rings on each side at the bottom of the field pack are used to provide shoulder strap attachment when the field pack is carried without the field pack frame. A waterproof bag is supplied for the main compartment and each of the three outside pockets for keeping equipment dry.

 

Field Pack (large) - The construction and materials in the large field pack are similar to the medium field pack with the differences being: it is much larger in size; the center outside pocket is larger than the other two main outside pockets; and the addition of three small outside pockets above the larger pockets. The large field pack MUST be used with the LC-1 Field Pack Frame.

LC = load carrying. The large field pack has to be carried with the LC-1 or LC-2 frame. The medium did not, although was often used with the frame. The original 1973 fittings for the system were designated LC-1, however in 1977 parts of the system were re-issued with more robust fittings due to failures in the field. These upgraded components were designated LC-2. The main differences for the field packs were:

 

• Field Pack, LC-2 medium (NSN 8465-01-019-9102) with new buckles and no liners
• Field Pack, LC-2 large (NSN 8465-01-019-9103) with new buckles and no liners
• Frame, Field Pack, LC-2 (NSN 8465-01-073-8326) green aluminium

 

Following pics are the Large pack

 

Diagnostic features of the CE ALICE pack

We know that the ALICE frame was discarded / not used as part of the CE prop. The frame as been discussed in this build thread already and is confirmed as the M75 pack frame. Therefore it does not matter whether an LC-1 or LC-2 frame is purchased as this will be discarded during the build.

 

As we know for the CE pack, the ALICE pack shows a larger external central pocket than the twp side pockets. This can be discerned even though the closure flap for the pack is folded down across the central pocket.

 

 

In addition the key diagnostic feature relates to the webbing mounted on the external sides of the pack. On the medium pack there is two part webbing patch on the upper part of the side wall and then another patch two-thirds of the way up from the bottom of the side wall. On the large patch theses webbing patches are present in the same locations as the medium pack, however there is an additional double patch of webbing located one-third of the way up from the bottom of the side wall. This double patch of webbing is present on the CE prop e.g. definitive ID that the large ALICE pack was used for the prop.

 

 

The difficult question is around whether an LC-1 or LC-2 large pack was used. As far as we have been able to ascertain there does not appear to be any external cosmetic difference between the LC-1 and LC-2 versions of the large pack. So long as the pack has the standard ALICE buckles then you are good to go. The internal liners are not used as part of the CE prop so will be discarded if you have an LC-1 pack, and will not be missed if you have an LC-2 pack. The critical point is that the ALICE buckles on the webbing must be present.

 

 

Colour

There has been debate about the colour of the ALICE pack used on the CE prop. Is it one of the scarce black ALICE packs, or is a painted / dyed common olive drab pack. Analysis of the numerous reference pictures, both under the convention centre's lighting and from flash photography, makes us believe that an OD pack was used and then dyed black. This is further corroborated by the team dyeing packs and comparing with the reference material. Further this would make more sense as the OD packs are readily available compared with the black version. The 'tell' is associated with the ALICE pack webbing which does not take / hold the black dye as well as the main body of the pack. This 'tell' is present on several of the original ALICE webbing straps retained on the CE pack.

 

Suppliers

The large ALICE pack OD is relatively easy to locate in the U.S.A., a little more scarce in Europe, U.K. and in other parts of the World, but still reasonably easy to acquire. The usual army surplus suppliers appear to have them in stock.\

 

Go-Army on Fleabay UK

 

http://www.epicmilitaria.com/us-army-alice-pack-large-lc-1.html

 

https://colemans.com/shop/pouches-bags/alice-pack-lc-ii-large-u-s-g-i/

 

The next instalment will look at dyeing the pack, adjusting it and packing to get the CE 'look', and detail modifications such as webbing and buckle replacement. That will be followed by examination of the shoulder straps and attachment to the M75 frame.

 

Best,

ireachy

 

BTW: we are trying to get everything for the pack up before the release of Rogue One - we are aware that the clock is ticking - and bearing in mind comments from ukswrath wrt trooping and your garrison position regarding this.

Edited November 16, 2016 by ireachy

[Bulldog44[TK]]

Just to add to Slyfox's tube post, I found fuel line tubing from a Japanese vendor here. Not sure if it is good though but it is 5.5mm OD and 3.5 ID. Looks to be more flat black. Any thoughts? I do think Slyfox's find looks amazingly accurate though. <br><br><br>

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://carburetor.ocnk.net/product/603%27' class="bbc_url" title="External link">http://carburetor.ocnk.net/product/603'>http://carburetor.ocnk.net/product/603</a></a><br><br>

Sorry the link doesn't seem to work when I add it from my ipad so you might have to type the address or try cut and paste it.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Bulldog44

[ireachy]

Just to add to Slyfox's tube post, I found fuel line tubing from a Japanese vendor here. Not sure if it is good though but it is 5.5mm OD and 3.5 ID. Looks to be more flat black. Any thoughts? I do think Slyfox's find looks amazingly accurate though. <br><br><br>

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://carburetor.ocnk.net/product/603%27' class="bbc_url" title="External link">http://carburetor.ocnk.net/product/603'>http://carburetor.ocnk.net/product/603</a></a><br><br>

Sorry the link doesn't seem to work when I add it from my ipad so you might have to type the address or try cut and paste it.

 

Bulldog44,

 

we are going to look at SlyFox's pointers as they are compelling. Part of the point of posting the build thread is to look at investigations from others, so that we can all benefit from an open forum and discussion. The beauty of these types of fora 

 

The flat black look of the surgical tubing is very intriguing. That resonance with regard to reflectivity, dull and flat colour is important, along with the shaping of the wraps - importantly retention of the slight convex profile - certainly not flattening, tending to concave, the spacing of the wraps and thus the OD of the tubing, and the ability to feed through the rod eyes, and the correct 'pinch'.

 

All great, and the critique, comments are so welcome. The canvas roll will be a case in point! Definitive ID of that roll is elusive at this point - although we do have some 'close' candidates. 

 

ireachy

[ireachy]

Just as a thought - wrt reflectivity of the silicone tubing - one mustn't discount the effects of weathering to 'dull' the potential glossiness of the silicone tubing. The rod that underlies the cable also shows the same weathering effects as the cable / tube itself. 

 

But as previously stated, the surgical tubing posited by SlyFox is very intriguing.

 

ireachy

[ireachy]

Also, as an addition, any folks that are at a point where you are adding the orange shoulder strap patch / flash to the left shoulder strap, hold off as we have some observations that will affect how that detail is applied to the prop - hopefully to be detailed by the end of this week - pending tad more investigation we're doing.

 

One month to go 'til premiere and general release  - of the movie that is - not reveal wrt shoulder strap...

 

ireachy

[Bulldog44[TK]]

Just as a thought - wrt reflectivity of the silicone tubing - one mustn't discount the effects of weathering to 'dull' the potential glossiness of the silicone tubing. The rod that underlies the cable also shows the same weathering effects as the cable / tube itself.

 

But as previously stated, the surgical tubing posited by SlyFox is very intriguing.

 

ireachy

Agreed. I also was thinking that any gloss tubing or wiring could be dulled down with weathering. The pinching is a tell tale sign of the material. I want to try and order the fuel line stuff I found but my investment in building this pack has taken its toll with shipping costs.

If I order it and get it in hands, I will report my findings.

Looking forward to seeing how you dye the Alice pack and how to get that orange patch look on tha shoulder strap.

[Bulldog44[TK]]

An observation I made regarding the antenna wire is that there seems to be a wire running through it or something like wire. I am unable to post the exact photo to reference but I can clearly see something protruding from the tube near the bottom. You can see this in the photo taken directly behind the display with the whole pack in view and the black tube is hanging down, not tucked into the pack as it is supposed to be. There is another side view photo where you can still see the protruding wire-like material. Maybe this was inserted only near the bottom of the tube to keep the tube in place. Or it runs through the tube making it easy to wrap it around the fishing pole so it stays in place better. Just my thoughts and observation. <br><br>

Strap slide adjuster observation- Also there is another photo from the rear right side of the pack giving a close view of the bottom right of the M75 frame. In that close up photo you can see one of the ladder style strap slide adjusters which is antique brass in color. It does appear to be weathered a bit revealing a plain metal color. Could this indicate the slide adjusters were painted? The cam buckles also look like they may have been painted flat black or dark color. Sorry I can't post the photos but they are in this thread somewhere and in the rogue one backpack found parts thread too. Interested to hear opinions from the team and anyone else. Apologies for posting this ahead of those parts being formally posted by the team.

[mr paul]

Slyfox, surgical tube....love it..looks very much what may have been used as it ticks seemingly all the boxes. It may also give more accurate width to the antenna tip as the tube and the tip are very close in width according to the poor imagery we have seen. Wire running through the cable not convinced. Wire protruding from the end....possibly,,,, need to see that image Bulldog. The pictures I have seen show what looks like hot glue around the bottom of the tube,, maybe used to hold it in place on the pack,,could it be this instead of what looks like wire?....buckles are going to be discussed in the next section ...Excellent work peeps.

Edited November 16, 2016 by mr paul

[Bulldog44[TK]]

For the antenna wire photo I am talking about it is in post#14 of the Rogue One Backpack found parts thread. But Mr. Paul, I now see that you may be correct that it is hot glue not an actual wire. My eyes were playing tricks on me with all the lighting in these photos. Sorry for the false alarm.<br><br><br>

For the strap slide adjuster I am talking about it is the last photo in post#14 of this thread.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Bulldog44

[mr paul]

The sliders on the bottom corners of the inner side of the pack could have been painted and I have seen a picture that could verify this although lighting in this are is always dark and confuses the issue. It is possible that the frame at CE is also painted black but once again lighting is the problem. The other known 6 buckles around the pack look to be antique brass as they are in better lighting. For now I am assuming they would all be the same colour. There is however a possibility that 2 have been painted. Not sure why 2 would be a different colour but this does not rule it out. 

[Bulldog44[TK]]

Sorry, one last thought on the top end cap of the antenna. I was thinking that since they used a fishing pole for the antenna, maybe they used other related fishing parts that were available to the prop makers. I had a look on line and found a few flywheel fishing reel handle knobs that look very similar to antenna end cap. <br>

I will try to find a way to post the pics I found. Not a perfect match but maybe it is a clue.

[mr paul]

Sorry, one last thought on the top end cap of the antenna. I was thinking that since they used a fishing pole for the antenna, maybe they used other related fishing parts that were available to the prop makers. I had a look on line and found a few flywheel fishing reel handle knobs that look very similar to antenna end cap. <br>

I will try to find a way to post the pics I found. Not a perfect match but maybe it is a clue.

The antenna tip is now being discussed over here http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/38162-rogue-one-stormtrooper-back-pack-part-found/Bare in mind the dimensions of the tip. It is quite small when compared to the rod tip and the antenna tubing

[SlyFox740[TK]]

SlyFox,

 

thanks for further analyses of the cable. I'll order some of the surgical tubing and get back to you. Compelling observations.

 

Thanks,

ireachy

You're very welcome! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts

 

Just to add to Slyfox's tube post, I found fuel line tubing from a Japanese vendor here. Not sure if it is good though but it is 5.5mm OD and 3.5 ID. Looks to be more flat black. Any thoughts? I do think Slyfox's find looks amazingly accurate though.

The found part I have identified for the Antenna Cable does look to be very accurate though I am actually still pursuing it further to see If I can possibly find an even closer match in terms of wall thickness, but I am convinced Latex Surgical Tubing is correct. Fuel line sounds like it could be tough to work with but It's definitely a possibility, and 5.5mm is definitely not far off from my measurements.

 

we are going to look at SlyFox's pointers as they are compelling. Part of the point of posting the build thread is to look at investigations from others, so that we can all benefit from an open forum and discussion. The beauty of these types of fora 

 

The flat black look of the surgical tubing is very intriguing. That resonance with regard to reflectivity, dull and flat colour is important, along with the shaping of the wraps - importantly retention of the slight convex profile - certainly not flattening, tending to concave, the spacing of the wraps and thus the OD of the tubing, and the ability to feed through the rod eyes, and the correct 'pinch'.

 

All great, and the critique, comments are so welcome. The canvas roll will be a case in point! Definitive ID of that roll is elusive at this point - although we do have some 'close' candidates. 

 

ireachy

  I edited my post about the surgical tubing 'Antenna Cable' on the last page, go back and read it when you get a chance.

Because latex tubing is so stretchy I should mention it is actually possible to collapse latex tubing into a concave profile if stretched & wrapped too tightly. Though I do not believe the prop maker would purposely deform the wrapped tube if he intended it to look like an electrical cable.

Latex tubing is VERY stretchy! It's actually the same type used for slingshots but the 5mm kind is used for that purpose.

 

Just as a thought - wrt reflectivity of the silicone tubing - one mustn't discount the effects of weathering to 'dull' the potential glossiness of the silicone tubing. The rod that underlies the cable also shows the same weathering effects as the cable / tube itself. 

 

But as previously stated, the surgical tubing posited by SlyFox is very intriguing.

 

ireachy

I did consider this initially, but due to the consistency of color ultimately I dismissed the possibly of the flat black finish being caused by weathering alone. There does seem to be some kind of dust or powder on the entire antenna assembly and dried up stains of some kind on the tubing or something of that nature.

 

Agreed. I also was thinking that any gloss tubing or wiring could be dulled down with weathering. The pinching is a tell tale sign of the material. I want to try and order the fuel line stuff I found but my investment in building this pack has taken its toll with shipping costs.

If I order it and get it in hands, I will report my findings.

Looking forward to seeing how you dye the Alice pack and how to get that orange patch look on tha shoulder strap.

Brian if you feel compelled to investigate the fuel line I encourage you to do so. As I said fuel line might be tough to manipulate and wrap around the pole and/or tough to thread through the eyes of the fishing rod, but I could be wrong on that. It's hard to say without further research, at the very least you would be helping eliminate another possibility off the list. I currently have two more additional sizes of Latex Surgical Tubing being shipped to me with differences in wall thickness. I also considered ordering tubing meant for crafting/making necklaces,ect. which appears to be flat black but it turns out that is also just latex tubing only a different size. 

 

Slyfox, surgical tube....love it..looks very much what may have been used as it ticks seemingly all the boxes. It may also give more accurate width to the antenna tip as the tube and the tip are very close in width according to the poor imagery we have seen. Wire running through the cable not convinced. Wire protruding from the end....possibly,,,, need to see that image Bulldog. The pictures I have seen show what looks like hot glue around the bottom of the tube,, maybe used to hold it in place on the pack,,could it be this instead of what looks like wire?....buckles are going to be discussed in the next section ...Excellent work peeps.

Thank Mr Paul! I'm fairly confident I have identified the correct part, though as I said I am still pursuing it further to see If I can find a closer match in terms of wall thickness which I believe affects the wrap profile. But I am convinced Latex Surgical Tubing is correct.

  I also do not believe there was any type of 'wire' running through the tube, it's unnecessary and shouldn't be needed to "keep the tube in place". Especially with Latex Surgical Tubing as I stated before it's extremely easy to work with, very soft and simple to manipulate even after it's wrapped! Though many types of tubing are not like this, some kinds of rubber are actually very stiff. So I can see how that idea could be considered by someone trying to recreate this antenna. Also about the Hot Glue, I thought it was the same thing! I'm thinking it was actually meant to hold the end of the tube inside the Norwegian Grenade Case or "Ammo Box" like that of the Hot Toys action figure as shown earlier.

Perhaps it's possible the glue fell off the CE Pack prior to being put on display, then they stuffed the end of the tube into the lower webbing patch on the side of the ALICE Pack only to ultimately fall out and hang down for the rest the event while on display.

Edited November 16, 2016 by SlyFox740

[mr paul]

Slyfox there appears to be 2 types of antenna identified so far. A long and a short version. We believe the long version terminates into the grenade box and the shorter version tucks into the alice pack as seen at CE. Until further proof it is hard to say. Seeing as they went to the trouble of having variations in length of antenna it may be that the cable enters the pack in different ways too...This pack is being built to the CE spec and it was tucked into the alice pack before it got pulled out on display so for now we are reluctantly attaching it in this way. I looked at rubber catapult tubing during my investigations, the type used in fishing could not find the right colour or width. I think you are correct with the surgical tubing. Need to have some in hand but the "squishier" the better in order for it to not collapse on winding. The tightness of the winding is what holds it all in place around the rod. i think we can all agree that the tubing is made from silicone/latex. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by mr paul

[SlyFox740[TK]]

Aside from the dye tells in the nylon webbing I wanted to show more evidence that proves the more common USGI issued OD Green A.L.I.C.E. Pack was used and not the rare black one issued to special task forces. The fact alone that they're common enough to be sold in surplus stores makes it pretty obvious that's what was sourced for the props. But just to be thorough I wanted to point out that the thread used to sew these packs is also OD Green so If you look closely at the stitching ANYWHERE on the screen used A.L.I.C.E. Pack you'll notice that it's still OD Green as it obviously did not take very well to the dye.

Edited November 30, 2016 by SlyFox740

[mr paul]

Yes the pack was definitely green without a doubt. The CE pack is not true black even after dyeing.

[mr paul]

Colouring the Alice Pack.

 

At this stage I think can safely say that the alice pack is not painted or sprayed black. It is made from nylon and is quite resistant to dyes however I have successfully coloured 3 packs to date using the following method. Closer inspection of the pack displayed at Celebration Europe show that the original green colour of the pack is showing through on various areas all over. From the webbing of the shoulder straps to the actual pack itself. I am sure there are many ways to dye this pack but because I have not got an endless supply of them to experiment on I can vouch that this technique does work time and time again.

 

In this image you can see the green webbing and an area where the original webbing has been removed revealing the green pack beneath. See how the pack appears lighter than the black fabric patches sewn to the sides.

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To begin the process I am using a black dye called Idye Poly. it is specifically formulated for synthetics and I am going to completely ignore the instructions on the box.

 

Soak the alice pack and shoulder straps in clean water first to make the whole thing damp. This will make it absorb the dye more willingly.

 

Dissolve the bag of dye and the colour enhancer in a jug of boiling water then add the jug to a half filled bucket of boiling water and stir well. Add the pack and straps to the bucket and submerge completely. Agitate and stir every 20 minutes for 3 hours.

 

After 3 hours remove the pack and straps, hang up and allow to drip dry.

 

When completely dry, put it in the washing machine on a rinse and spin cycle and  allow to dry again. After this first pass with the dye, the pack and straps should be a dark green and the forest camo pattern will still be visible on the padded straps.

 

I now repeat the same process again using a black dye called RIT.

 

Once again dissolve the satchet into a jug of boiling water and stir the jug into a half filled bucket of boiling water. Soak the pack and straps then add it all to the bucket of dye. Agitate and stir over a 3 hour period. Allow to completely drip dry then put it all through a rinse and spin cycle in the washing machine. This time when it has dried the pack should be a very dark green bordering on black. The shoulder straps will be very dark and the camo pattern barely visible if at all. The fabric patches are true black and darker than the pack itself. This process can have random results and I think this may have been the case with the screen used packs.

 

The alice pack is now ready for the next stage. Parts of the pack are removed and webbing, buckles are replaced.

Edited November 16, 2016 by mr paul

[ireachy]

ALICE pack webbing and buckles

 

The ALICE buckles at the bottom of the pack - used to attach the soft pack to the frame are removed and replaced with ladder / triglide / slider buckles (henceforth referred to as slider buckles).

 

 

The ALICE pack webbing that wraps over the top of the soft pack and holds down the pack flap over the central external pocket are cut off and replaced with 25mm / 1" polyprop black webbing. Slider buckles - 2 for each webbing strap on either side of the external central pocket, so 4 in total - are also used. SlyFox provides an excellent overview of this webbing on the Rogue One pack found parts thread on this site.

 

 

Ignore the text in the image below - that was part of mr paul and myself working out slider buckle positioning which mr paul will discuss in the next instalment.

 

 

The slider buckles appear to be antique brass - see pic above and below. Ignore the arrows in second pic below - again these are part of mr paul and myself working out slider buckle positioning and webbing threading which mr paul will discuss in the next instalment. The first pic also shows that a slight 'lip' to the slider buckle is evident.

 

 

The dimensions of the slider buckles can be seen in the pic below. 30mm external width / 25mm internal width.

 

 

So in total for the ALICE soft pack component of the CE pack you will need 6 antique brass slider buckles 30mm external width / 25mm internal width. Note that 2 more of the same slider buckles are used on the shoulder straps to attach the straps to the M75 frame - we will detail this following mr paul's pack build. I am mentioning this here so that you purchase atleast 8 slider buckles.

 

2m of the black polyprop 25mm / 1" webbing should suffice for the ALICE pack webbing. Note that when replacing the bottom ALICE buckles with the slider buckles, the CE prop re-uses the original ALICE pack webbing for these attachments - DO NOT cut off that webbing, although the webbing that attaches the actual slider buckle to the base of the pack appears to be the black polyprop 25mm webbing. The original ALICE webbing is used to loop around the frame and pass through the slider buckle, attaching the pack to the frame base. Mr paul will detail these points.

 

As discussed on this thread it appears that the bottom slider buckles may be painted black. The other 4 slider buckles used with the black polyprop webbing are left as antique brass.

 

Suppliers

The black polyprop 25mm / 1" webbing is relatively ubiquitous and readily available from numerous retailers and online suppliers.

 

The team purchased their antique brass slider buckles - 30mm external width / 25mm internal width - from the following site. It is worth noting that supplies have been cahllenging in the last month or so. It is possible that silver nickel or gunmetal buckles can be weathered using  washes and vinegar corrosion techniques to achieve the correct tarnished finish (thanks for the pointer Fett4Real).

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181396564350?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&var=480379766443&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Mr paul will next detail the adjustments and mods to the ALICE soft pack and packing and folding to achieve the CE prop look. Following that we will detail the shoulder straps including painting of the orange patch / flash.

 

Best,

ireachy

Edited November 17, 2016 by ireachy

[mr paul]

Alice Pack Assembly

 

Before I start I have noticed from this image that it appears more webbing has been replaced than I first thought. The webbing that retains the bottom corner buckles has been switched with the black polypropylene type. The following instructions do not include this modification. It is a simple fix that I can adjust in due course on my version 2 pack. depending on your perception of the image you can make this modification based on your own judgement.

 

Baring in mind the above notification, these are all the parts I have removed from my alice pack.

 

Starting with the 2 bottom corner buckles. Unpick the stitching far enough to allow the buckles to be removed. If at this point you choose to switch the webbing for the polypropylene, then simply remove it completely from the pack and stitch the replacement webbing back on in the same way as the original.

 

Using strong black thread stitch it back together with the antique brass slider in place. do this for both sides. 

A close up of one of the sliders shows what could be black paint over the antique brass finish. This is also something that can be added later when further reference becomes available.

 

The 2 buckles either side of the front middle pouch are removed and the webbing is unpicked and stripped away towards the back of the alice pack. This image is taken from the Celebration Europe pack.

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Using a sharp knife cut the stitching and remove the webbing as far back as shown here.

 

When you have peeled it back to this point cut it off and discard.

 

In its place using strong black thread add 2 polypropylene retaining loops (same style as for the corner buckles) onto the front, bottom of the alice pack positioned against the seam line. Add the 2 antique brass slider buckles. Note the length of the replaced webbing.

 

With a sharp craft knife or scalpel carefully remove the foam pad from the alice pack. There is no evidence this was removed however through trial and error I have discovered the pack cannot be folded adequately with this foam pad in place.

 

An image from Celebration Europe reveals that further webbing has been removed. A frayed stub of original nylon alice pack webbing can just be seen poking out from under the ammo box. This is evident on both sides.

 

The 2 longest straps on the alice pack need to be removed leaving 2/3 inches intact. This 2/3 inch stub is what is seen on the CE image under the ammo box.

Ignore that this pack is already tied to the frame. This is for reference purposes regarding the webbing. 

 

With the replacement of the 4 buckles, removal of the 2 long straps and the foam pad, the pack can now be filled to shape using upholstery foam. I chose this as a stuffing because its reasonably light yet firm enough to hold a rigid shape.

 

The foam is cut to size and pushed into the pack to create a rough rectangle shape. It needs to be filled high enough so the fabric patches are seen like this on each end.

 

Stuff the alice pack tightly including the front 3 pouches.

 

Tighten the pull chord of the alice pack and tuck it away inside the bag.

 

Fold the alice pack neatly like the corners of a birthday present. 

 

Place extra foam under the large alice pack flap to bulk out the top of the centre pouch. The top of the centre pouch on the CE display pack sits higher than the 2 outer pouches. This added foam will help to achieve that look.

 

Attaching Alice Pack to the Frame

 

Thread the bottom corner buckles to attach them to the M75/LK35 webbing mounts as shown below. Pull them up as tight as they will go and do this for both sides. This will help hold the pack in-situ for the next step.

 

Cut 2x 38 inch lengths of black polypropylene webbing. Stitch one end to an antique brass slider buckle using strong black thread. Heat, melt and seal the other end to stop it fraying. Do this for both lengths.

 

In the following images look very closely how the webbing is threaded around the M75 frame and how it is threaded through the sliders. Through very close observations by ireachy and practical application by myself we concluded this can be the only way the pack could have been threaded given the reference material we had to work with. It works and it looks right. Follow the steps below and do it for both sides.

This thread pattern achieves the same look as seen on the CE pack and functions correctly when used to tighten the alice pack to the frame. Between these 2 straps and the 2 bottom corner buckles the alice pack is held firmly in place. nothing else is needed to secure it.

 

These pictures show the filled alice pack attached to the frame. Note where the buckles are placed compared to the pouches. While your pack is at this stage use the time to adjust and shape it to match what is seen in the Celebration Europe reference imagery. Once the ammo box is in place it becomes difficult to go back and adjust the pack.

Note the frayed stubs of the remaining original webbing that will be seen from under the ammo box.

Note the position of the fabric patches on the side.

Note the taller middle pouch. This will become even more prominent when the ammo box is pushed down on top to compress the pack.

The pack can look a little dishevelled at this point but do not worry. Straps can be adjusted/cut to length and the shape manipulated throughout the build. Disregard the fact that my pack is weathered in the images. I am using an existing pack from a previous build. The weathering can take place at the end.

Edited November 17, 2016 by mr paul

[TK3645]

Hey Paul, Can I ask your reason's for not following the iDye Poly instructions...I brought this product some weeks ago when you first mentioned it and have sourced a large "Jam pot/metal pan" to use the stove top method of dyeing...Does this method fail to work or are there other reasons?

 

P.S Great thread by the way...appreciate all the work/research involved.

[mr paul]

Hey Paul, Can I ask your reason's for not following the iDye Poly instructions...I brought this product some weeks ago when you first mentioned it and have sourced a large "Jam pot/metal pan" to use the stove top method of dyeing...Does this method fail to work or are there other reasons?

 

P.S Great thread by the way...appreciate all the work/research involved.

Because I did not have a pot large enough for the alice pack and shoulder straps. You can experiment and follow the instructions if you wish but remember the alice pack does not appear to be true black. Also it could get very messy doing this in your kitchen. I opted for a bucket in the garden. The water cools off over the 3 hours but this does not hinder the dyeing process  I also ignored the RIT instructions because it only has instructions for top loading washing machines. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by mr paul

[moldycrow[TK]]

Great job on this!  Any thoughts on the dye being too dark?

 

The pack in the pictures above looks great, but much lighter than the one in your dye pictures.