Anovos and RS side by side.

[humperdingle]

Isn't the best method for direct comparison, to photograph each item from exactly the same angle (individually), then stitch the two photos next to each other?<br>

If you physically put the two pieces side-by-side, there are differences in angle, lighting, etc.

[Locitus[Admin]]

You have a good point here however, I didn't just base my opinion simply on Vern's pictures.   I've held both sets of armor in my hands (side by side). I'll agree the lineage is very similar, but being recast? That's my opinion. I've never met an engineer that can simply look at an image of an object and duplicate it exactly or know every detail without first having it in their hands or some specifications. 

 

I doubt anyone here on the FISD was present when Anovos acquired whatever armor they used as their template, or there if they decided to personalized their version of it. One thing is for certain, since Anovos has come onto the scene there's been an all out assault by some to crucify them for any reason possible. That's also an opinion.

 

If Vern decides to post side by side comparisons that's his prerogative, if he doesn't, don't chastise him for it. 

You say the linage is similar. We say it's the same, but cleaned up.  Not a far stretch of the imagination to see how it could be just that, considering how overly sanitized the anovos kit is.

 

We don't crucify Vern for not posting side-by-side pictures. We crucify him for saying he did, when he clearly did not. Very different.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

You say the linage is similar. We say it's the same, but cleaned up.  Not a far stretch of the imagination to see how it could be just that, considering how overly sanitized the anovos kit is.

 

We don't crucify Vern for not posting side-by-side pictures. We crucify him for saying he did, when he clearly did not. Very different.

 

Well, I said crucify Anovos, not Vern, but whatever  .

 

What fathoms me is why hasn't anyone that believes it's a recast, purchased a set of Anovos and do your own comparison instead of speculating or railing on others for their opinion. 

[Locitus[Admin]]

Well, I said crucify Anovos, not Vern, but whatever  .

 

What fathoms me is why hasn't anyone that believes it's a recast, purchased a set of Anovos and do your own comparison instead of speculating or railing on others for their opinion. 

Probably because to do a meaningful comparisson you need both kits untrimmed and unassembled. And you rarely have both at the same time. Look at the RS vs NE thread in the recast-area. That was a meaningful comparisson.

 

Sure, someone with a fresh RS kit could do it, but investing another $650 when you just paid $1000 for RS is painful for anyone in that position. And those of us doing the claims probably don't have untrimmed kits laying around either. So for us it's a $1650 investment.

 

Maybe RS could be persuaded to buy an anovos kit and compare with their raw pulls.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

Probably because to do a meaningful comparisson you need both kits untrimmed and unassembled. And you rarely have both at the same time. Look at the RS vs NE thread in the recast-area. That was a meaningful comparisson.

 

Sure, someone with a fresh RS kit could do it, but investing another $650 when you just paid $1000 for RS is painful for anyone in that position. And those of us doing the claims probably don't have untrimmed kits laying around either. So for us it's a $1650 investment.

 

Maybe RS could be persuaded to buy an anovos kit and compare with their raw pulls.

 

All good points and ideas.

 

I'm a firm believer in the quote "Putting your money where your mouth is". If people are going to spend an enormous amount of time speculating and badmouthing something they've never held in their own hands, it could all be put to rest with a simple investment. And if you are an armorer and it has the potential to prove your point and possibly increase revenue then you would think the investment would be worth it don't you? Just a thought

[TK 22686[TK]]

I'm trying to wrap my head around why people are bad mouthing it at all.  Just be happy that a company put out a pretty decent kit.  There have been some disasters and dumpster fires that have been sold here and there....

 

If people choose to buy Anovos, RS, ATA, TM, etc...that's their choice.  I would have to imagine that many of the sign offs and decisions were made by Disney.  Maybe some of the anger should be thrown in that direction?  From my understanding....aren't re-casted kits usually much softer on details?  Why are the details on the Anovos kit so sharp?

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Jason,

 

The bad-mouthing stems primarily from behind-the-scene politics that happened a few years ago, and the origin of ANOVOS (the company) itself.  I won't delve any deeper into it than that here, but rest assured that when you complete your build/submission/approval, you will have access to the Legion forums and will be able to see plenty of the questions/concerns that are generally the cause for it.

As for the two armors, I haven't held both of them in my hands, but I did have an (untrimmed) NE kit, and an (untrimmed) ANOVOS kit in my hands, and did take actual side-by-side photos of the parts, and I certainly hold the opinion that they share some lineage.  Is it recast?  I certainly don't believe it is.  Is it a substantially sanitized/sharpened version of that shared lineage - I'd say yes.  How does that happen?  My opinion - and it is pure conjecture - is that it was a 3D scan and that file was then digitally sharpened or enhanced to facilitate the machined aluminum molds being made cleanly.

Having said all that, no new cadet/recruit/prospect should have any real fear or concerns in looking at ANOVOS kits.  I'm of the opinion that ANOVOS is simply another vendor of armor at this point in time, and their kits should be weighed against the others which are available using the same criteria:  Accuracy/approvability (They can be approved at Centurion level); Availability (Their availability is still a question based on their business model and propensity to do things in runs); Timeliness (using their pre-order runs, there is typically a long wait for the kits); Customer Service (Also still up in the air as even though they answer many concerns quickly, just as many of them linger for some time before being addressed); Value...  This is a personal decision that is made based on the other criteria.  If you can grab another vendor's kit for a comparable price in three weeks, and it will fit you with little additional work, then grab that one.  It goes the same way for any other armor vendor.  They all basically offer you the same product.  It is going to come down to a matter of which one speaks to you for whatever reason, as a potential customer.

[AWOL]

The only question that springs to my mind on this is have anovos actually divulged where their kit came from? As in fresh sculpt recast or scan from n original tk suit? If not why not?

 

The problem now is even if it were proven that it was an rs recast/scan nothing could be done about it and I think both anovos and Disney know this and why? Simply put if anybody made a legal challenge as to the lineage of it all 3rd party armour makers (to, rs, ata etc) would immediately be stamped out by Disney lawyers under copyright law...

 

If I can think of that as a scenario you can bet your house that Disney's lawyers have already been prepped and are already geared to act...

 

 

that's no moon, Kim Kardashian is bending over again...

Edited April 19, 2016 by AWOL

[troopermaster]

I did have an (untrimmed) NE kit, and an (untrimmed) ANOVOS kit in my hands, and did take actual side-by-side photos of the parts, and I certainly hold the opinion that they share some lineage.  Is it recast?  I certainly don't believe it is.

How can you say that?

 

How can Anovos and NE share the same parts Rob sculpted?

 

Please explain how this is possible because these parts are unique to RS.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

Now that Disney is at the helm and has granted Anovos the license to build and distribute what they wish, as stated last year on the other thread, Disney doesn't like to share and they will get what they want. I don't agree with the philosophy but it's a fact. We have more movies coming down the pipe with new armor to gawk or complain about. I believe a better use of people's energy would to try and get involved and help steer that ship instead of sitting around screaming foul, and be left at the dock as a museum curator, unless that's your goal.

 

These are exciting times we live in. The SW fervor has never been as big as it is now. New recruits are joining the legion in droves, new movies are releasing on a annual basis. Every time I turn around some asks me, are you 501st? I haven't been part of the legion a fraction compared to some and yet I feel like it's been a part of me my whole life. Good times 

[troopermaster]

Also, I don't believe you know what recasting is. Sure, the parts are not exact copies of the RS but that is because the parts have been overly cleaned up. The fact that they backfilled RS armour to make their moulds and clean them up is still recasting regardless if they are cleaned up or not.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

Also, I don't believe you know what recasting is. Sure, the parts are not exact copies of the RS but that is because the parts have been overly cleaned up. The fact that they backfilled RS armour to make their moulds and clean them up is still recasting regardless if they are cleaned up or not.

 

In my line of work, if it's not OEM it's recast. Wouldn't that make all armor recast unless it came from the original mold? Aren't the different armors are just variations of recast? 

[Locitus[Admin]]

Technically, RS is mostly also a recast. But from a real suit. The only suits not recasts are the original GF-FX (not the last FX), TM and parts of AM1.0.

 

The difference is most recasts we discuss here as vetted were made with permission from those owning the LFL suits they were cast from.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

Technically, RS is mostly also a recast. But from a real suit. The only suits not recasts are the original GF-FX (not the last FX), TM and parts of AM1.0.

 

The difference is most recasts we discuss here as vetted were made with permission from those owning the LFL suits they were cast from.

 

I understand that, but whatever control LFL had over that is quickly fading into the sunset. We now MTK, WTF & Anovos. Recast is recast, be it the first or the last. Some are much better than others I'll agree but I think the train has left the LFL station and it isn't coming back. 

[Locitus[Admin]]

I understand that, but whatever control LFL had over that is quickly fading into the sunset. We now MTK, WTF & Anovos. Recast is recast, be it the first or the last. Some are much better than others I'll agree but I think the train has left the LFL station and it isn't coming back. 

That train left long ago. The only thing we have left is honesty and quality. And that's really the main issue at play here.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

How can you say that?

 

How can Anovos and NE share the same parts Rob sculpted?

 

Please explain how this is possible because these parts are unique to RS.

Please keep in mind that I never once mentioned RS in my statement.  Anywhere.  On the contrary, I said that ANOVOS and NE - in my opinion - share the same lineage.  How is that possible?

 

Well, "In creating this new costume, ANOVOS used references from both private collectors and the Lucasfilm Archives, developing unique sculpts for each piece of armor." Nowhere have I been able to find any statement (and I doubt anyone else will either) as to how those references were used, whether that means looking at the movie stills (Lucasfilm Archives) or scanning armor pieces for clean up prior to 3D printing a "new sculpt."

 

Also "private collectors," implies some really awesome access, but to me, is potentially fancy lingo for "501st Legion member" who would very likely have access to many different armors and parts of them.   

Also, I don't believe you know what recasting is. Sure, the parts are not exact copies of the RS but that is because the parts have been overly cleaned up. The fact that they backfilled RS armour to make their moulds and clean them up is still recasting regardless if they are cleaned up or not.

As for this...  I fully understand the classic application of the term "recasting" but I don't know that it applies in the same vein that it used to.  It is a different world now.

 

For instance, I'm (at best) a novice when it comes to dealing with 3D file manipulation, but I'm far more likely to be successful at manipulating a scanned 3D file than I am at physically recasting a piece of armor that someone else has already made.  Even if I understand the processes involved in recasting armor, there are more variables and fine skills and techniques at play - which I'm sure you know better than most - than simply altering a 3D file and turning that over to a machinist.

[Locitus[Admin]]

Derivative art, even when digital is usually not permitted under copyright unless significantly altered until it becomes original art in itself. Now, that case might not be applicable here since LFL still owns the copyright in the US where Anovos is based. But it works as a thought experiment on ethics.

[starsaber25[Admin]]

Wow I've been at work since I caught up with this thread at 8 this morning and this thread really blew up. This thread shows that we certainly have many very passionate members in regards to our white plastic spacemen. However remember everyone. We have a lot of proud owners of all different types of armor. We are all on the same team and we all love Stormtroopers and Star Wars.

[starsaber25[Admin]]

Now I'll be in the new member area welcoming new troopers and helping them choose whichever armor is right for them and for what ever reasons that may be

[Lichtbringer]

But it works as a thought experiment on ethics.

 

 

Hmm, ethics ....... i wonder if LFL ever gave permission to make direct copies of the suits they made for the films. Using the design to make own stuff is one thing, pulling copies another.

 

What leads me to - how got those suits, which are now in private hands, into private hands? Is there any proof they were sold by LFL (or given away)? Or did they just vanished from set or storage, to later pop up and being sold?

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Thank you Steve!!!   That sounds like an awesome idea! 

[pandatrooper[TK]]

I just wanted to share / reiterate that the molds / bucks were milled out of aluminium. Per the Anovos newsletter several months back.<br>

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=d364b6e2ca1099fb0335fbecd&id=a995a5acf2&e=e4236154b5'>http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=d364b6e2ca1099fb0335fbecd&id=a995a5acf2&e=e4236154b5</a><br><br>

"We decided to have the bucks milled in Aluminum to avoid degradation of the molds". The pictures in the newsletter show a helmet milled from aluminium.<br><br>

I don't have the link handy but Anovos showed some behind the scenes production videos of the armor being made in China. I recall seeing Aluminum molds in the manufacturing process.<br><br>

For those not familiar with the process:<br><br>

1. Create a 3D model in the computer (Cad file etc.)<br>

2. File is used as the data to CNC mill the shape out of Aluminum<br>

3. Finished CNC form is used as a vacuform mold.<br><br>

Prior to step 1, a 3D modeller creates the model from scratch or can use a 3D scan point cloud or newer photogrammetry style data to use as a base. A point cloud has far to much noise in the form / data to mill from it directly, so a model needs to be cleaned up or modelled from scratch but using the scan / point cloud as a guide.<br><br>

Back to the debate of if they recast RS or not, I can't be sure - not like I worked on it. <br><br>

BUT: If some people can identify that some parts are clearly RS, and Anovos did claim they used reference from " private collections" it could be likely they 3D scanned portions of an RS suit and used the point cloud as reference.<br><br>

So yes, it might have been "reworked" and cleaned up, but if the tells are there then they used RS.<br><br>

Now we get into the debate of "does taking a scan, modelling from scratch but using point cloud reference of the original constitute re asting?" Some on the RPF say yes, some say no. <br><br>

If it's in poor taste for the fan community to do it, it's even worse if a licensee does it (in my personal opinion).

[Locitus[Admin]]

Hmm, ethics ....... i wonder if LFL ever gave permission to make direct copies of the suits they made for the films. Using the design to make own stuff is one thing, pulling copies another.

 

What leads me to - how got those suits, which are now in private hands, into private hands? Is there any proof they were sold by LFL (or given away)? Or did they just vanished from set or storage, to later pop up and being sold?

Some were rescued from dumpsters where LFL had thrown the out for disposal. Some where given away to cast and crew as gifts.

 

In RS's case, Simons uncle if I recall was working on the movie or the promotions of it in one way or another. It's most likely the suit was gifted to him for a job well done. It was already pretty beaten up and could probably not have been reused for more filming even if that had been planned at the time, which it wasn't.

[TK 22686[TK]]

The only question that springs to my mind on this is have anovos actually divulged where their kit came from? As in fresh sculpt recast or scan from n original tk suit? If not why not?

The problem now is even if it were proven that it was an rs recast/scan nothing could be done about it and I think both anovos and Disney know this and why? Simply put if anybody made a legal challenge as to the lineage of it all 3rd party armour makers (to, rs, ata etc) would immediately be stamped out by Disney lawyers under copyright law...

If I can think of that as a scenario you can bet your house that Disney's lawyers have already been prepped and are already geared to act...

that's no moon, Kim Kardashian is bending over again...

In their advertisement page....they said they had access to the digital archives...much like DICE had when making Battlefront. They had scans of suits and access to a suit from a collector or some such thing.

 

Maybe the reason the similarities are so prevalent with the suits is that the materials Disney made available allowed them to make sculpts/molds of some very accurate pieces...while allowing them to take their liberties such as cleaning it up, sharpening details, etc.

 

I agree with Tony. I'm excited to be getting into the 501st at this point in time. Star Wars is growing and we'll get to influence so many people. Let's focus on what's to come and not get so wrapped up in something like this that it all passes you by.

[Lichtbringer]

Which brings it back to the first part of my post.

 

If owning a piece is all what´s needed (at least in UK the design is free for everyone due to being a "industrial design" iirr) to be OK to make copies and sell them ..... then everyone who buys a armor in UK can make as much copies and sell them for profit. As noone can claim the design for himself.