FOTK CRL Edit Proposition.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

Hello,

 

I wanted to open back the debat about this requirement of the FOTK CRL: 

 

 

http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/12/31/04/96/sans_t14.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Now with that requirement in mind, here's my current issue with it.

 

 

All the troopers pictured below are clearly looking like TFA stormtroopers, from 501st members to the general audience eyes, yet none of them can be approved at the Legion level because they do have visible seams.

 

 

http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/12/31/04/96/12801610.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://static1.purepeople.com/articles/6/16/77/66/@/1984669-lancement-des-illuminations-de-noel-950x0-1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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In fact, most of these armors have been LFL approved for special events such "Galleries Lafayette Parade" or "DisneyLand Paris Parade", but they're currently not 501st worthy. It seems wrong to me as those seams aren't even much noticeable unless upon close inspection.  Actually I think this requirement is unnecessarly restraining 501st membership than anything else. Especially when at the same time we still allow for approval FX armors, supposedly for not creating unecessary barriers to entry into the Legion because we should focus on including rather than excluding. I kind of see a contradiction here. 

 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, the amount of money needed to complete a full FOTK armor is already very excluding. Now if you add to this the need for seam filler, primer, paint, and varnish for a whole set of armor (which is a lot), and man-hours if you can't underdo this work yourself, it becomes even more excluding, when in the end the visual difference is minimal.

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion this requirement could very much be something that could be moved to a L2 or L3 level of approval. People who have already built their armor up to the current CRL wouldn't be troubled by this change and would already be up to the higher level, when it will open the door for new comers to minimize the expense and work required to complete base level approval; while also leaving them the choice to upgrade later on.

 

 

 

 

 

I know we're in post-election period, and the FISD's staff for this year hasn't even already been announced, but I think starting to think about this now would be a good thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by gmrhodes13
link not working, removed gmrhodes13 2021

[ask382]

Seconded

[Pencap510]

Agreed-

[camprandall]

I think that the troopers in the pic do definitely look well put together! Subtle differences between some molds, but certainly the right look either way. I guess one issue I have is that it seams that the whole thing comes down to not wanting to hide seams, which every FO TK has done to date and seems like a slippery slope with CRLs.

 

Now if you add to this the need for seam filler, primer, paint, and varnish for a whole set of armor (which is a lot), and man-hours if you can't underdo this work yourself, it becomes even more excluding, when in the end the visual difference is minimal.

 

It's worth pointing out that I'm not even really against the change when it comes to seams, I'm just saying that the post really comes down to this one point which seems to only be not wanting to do the work to hide the seams. It's not a problem with the molds or hard to get parts or anything, just the work. Isn't that a tough argument to make then? You can look at other kits like clones and make the same arguments. We don't allow just any white leather boot either and it usually comes down to only some stitching here or there. Obviously there is room for flexibility as we aren't pretending we are building them in 100% the same way as Disney/LFL, with a huge budget and staff of costume designers and props people, but it brings up the bigger issue of having consistent reasons for when these kinds of details should be left off. Can't get a part without an excruciating wait or exorbitant cost? Build in some flexibility to the CRL and shoot for a happy middle-ground. Have to take more time and a bit of money to make it right? No need for that same flexibility, just assistance and patience. 

 

I'm definitely on the side of not making approval arbitrarily difficult. I for one like my suits to look really nice, but am not the type to care much about achieving the higher approval levels. I primarily care about trooping. I do think though that it would feel arbitrary to remove that requirement because it's hard or the materials cost money, which is an element of every suit. That being said, if it's changed by the staff, I won't dispute it because there are many wiser people than me around here.

Edited February 29, 2016 by camprandall

[plushie[TK]]

I'm not opposed to the CRL amendment in making the seamless be L2 or L3. That feels like a happy medium to me.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

I think that the troopers in the pic do definitely look well put together! Subtle differences between some molds, but certainly the right look either way. I guess one issue I have is that it seams that the whole thing comes down to not wanting to hide seams, which every FO TK has done to date and seems like a slippery slope with CRLs.

 

 

It's worth pointing out that I'm not even really against the change when it comes to seams, I'm just saying that the post really comes down to this one point which seems to only be not wanting to do the work to hide the seams. It's not a problem with the molds or hard to get parts or anything, just the work. Isn't that a tough argument to make then? You can look at other kits like clones and make the same arguments. We don't allow just any white leather boot either and it usually comes down to only some stitching here or there. Obviously there is room for flexibility as we aren't pretending we are building them in 100% the same way as Disney/LFL, with a huge budget and staff of costume designers and props people, but it brings up the bigger issue of having consistent reasons for when these kinds of details should be left off. Can't get a part without an excruciating wait or exorbitant cost? Build in some flexibility to the CRL and shoot for a happy middle-ground. Have to take more time and a bit of money to make it right? No need for that same flexibility, just assistance and patience. 

 

I'm definitely on the side of not making approval arbitrarily difficult. I for one like my suits to look really nice, but am not the type to care much about achieving the higher approval levels. I primarily care about trooping. I do think though that it would feel arbitrary to remove that requirement because it's hard or the materials cost money, which is an element of every suit. That being said, if it's changed by the staff, I won't dispute it because there are many wiser people than me around here.

I see your point here Clint. It's not much the seam work which is annoying, it's the fact it necessarly involves painting the armor after, which is an expensive step if you want to get it right. All that when in the end raw ABS looks already really good, making the paint process facultative to my eyes (for basic approval only of course). 

 

Also some people just don't like to paint a whole armor, for maintenance reason. After a number of troop attendance and depending on how hard were the troops, painted armors can flake off. And fixing this is harder than if it just unpainted ABS. Once again, it can be seen as laziness, but some are really reluctant to this.

[camprandall]

I see your point here Clint. It's not much the seam work which is annoying, it's the fact it necessarly involves painting the armor after, which is an expensive step if you want to get it right. All that when in the end raw ABS looks already really good, making the paint process facultative to my eyes (for basic approval only of course). 

 

Also some people just don't like to paint a whole armor, for maintenance reason. After a number of troop attendance and depending on how hard were the troops, painted armors can flake off. And fixing this is harder than if it just unpainted ABS. Once again, it can be seen as laziness, but some are really reluctant to this.

 

Ok, gotcha. I didn't realize these weren't painted. Yeah, the paint aspect of this is a huge pain because I do maintenance after every troop. I can see that argument that it's a lot of unnecessary additional work for that.

 

I'm curious how the yoke looks on these? I know with the ANOVOS there's no way you could do it with straight ABS and no finishing layer because the edges were very obvious and rough.

Edited February 29, 2016 by camprandall

[bearings[TK]]

The yoke is the first thing I thought of as well, the rest is probably fine?

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

On 2/29/2016 at 11:05 PM, bearings said:

The yoke is the first thing I thought of as well, the rest is probably fine?

 

On 2/29/2016 at 10:04 PM, camprandall said:

I'm curious how the yoke looks on these? I know with the ANOVOS there's no way you could do it with straight ABS and no finishing layer because the edges were very obvious and rough.

 

Most have used ABS paste for that junction:

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Edited March 8, 2021 by gmrhodes13
link not working, removed gmrhodes13 2021

[ukswrath[Staff]]

As much as I would like to see it easier for entry level troopers, the Anovos armor, due to its manufacturing process has seams in areas the movie armor doesn't. The yoke for example, as Clint mentioned is highly visible and would be difficult to hide the imperfections. Unfortunately yes, having a set FO TK armor is a bit on the expensive side but so is a Vader costume. There's a couple builders outside of Anovos that have built their armor seamless in the required areas. If they can do it, requesting Anovos buyers to invest in some bondo/filler and a few cans of spray paint isn't asking too much to have something look correct in it's most basic form in my opinion.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

As much as I would like to see it easier for entry level troopers, the Anovos armor, due to its manufacturing process has seams in areas the movie armor doesn't. The yoke for example, as Clint mentioned is highly visible and would be difficult to hide the imperfections. Unfortunately yes, having a set FO TK armor is a bit on the expensive side but so is a Vader costume. There's a couple builders outside of Anovos that have built their armor seamless in the required areas. If they can do it, requesting Anovos buyers to invest in some bondo/filler and a few cans of spray paint isn't asking too much to have something look correct in it's most basic form in my opinion.

The thing here is, by thinking like that you are striving for absolute movie accuracy from the base level of approval. It's not the goal of the 501st, and it seems a bit overkill to me as, like I have already said, those seams whether they are left visible or filled don't play much in the visual look of the finished armor.

[dak[TK]]

I hear you! And I second that. It is too tight for entry. Yes for L2 &L3.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

The thing here is, by thinking like that you are striving for absolute movie accuracy from the base level of approval. It's not the goal of the 501st, and it seems a bit overkill to me as, like I have already said, those seams whether they are left visible or filled don't play much in the visual look of the finished armor.

 

You misunderstood me, if I'd thought 501st basic armor should look screen accurate then I would have also requested the shoulder supports, as well as other areas be mandated at basic, I said neither. The yoke looks like crap unfinished and I seriously doubt everyone will be using the same adhesives to hold it together. The filler and paint is to hide the undesirable look of the area. You of all people should know at the Garrison approval there is an expected level of accuracy or it's a no go. The yoke and anywhere else on the armor where the armor assembly sticks out like sore thumb should be addressed at basic.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Honesty in my response, right up front:  I haven't read this thread yet.  Not more than five or six lines of text.

Having said that, we're not going to be looking at any changes to the CRL simply for the sake of changing the CRL.  

 

Sometime after April 5th, we'll begin looking at the requirements for level 2 (possibly 3) for the FO TK CRL.  At that point in time, we'll be discussing things like what - that is now a basic requirement - is better served at level 2, with the better references that we will have available to us.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

 

You misunderstood me, if I'd thought 501st basic armor should look screen accurate then I would have also requested the shoulder supports, as well as other areas be mandated at basic, I said neither. The yoke looks like crap unfinished and I seriously doubt everyone will be using the same adhesives to hold it together. The filler and paint is to hide the undesirable look of the area. You of all people should know at the Garrison approval there is an expected level of accuracy or it's a no go. The yoke and anywhere else on the armor where the armor assembly sticks out like sore thumb should be addressed at basic.

Alright I get your point but those armors aren't ANOVOS, so what applies to ANOVOS armors doesn't necessarly applies to all the others. Maybe wording will be required then. Something like: Seams don't have to be filled, but they must remain discret and clean. If not possible, then fill and paint.

 

Honesty in my response, right up front:  I haven't read this thread yet.  Not more than five or six lines of text.

Having said that, we're not going to be looking at any changes to the CRL simply for the sake of changing the CRL.  

 

Sometime after April 5th, we'll begin looking at the requirements for level 2 (possibly 3) for the FO TK CRL.  At that point in time, we'll be discussing things like what - that is now a basic requirement - is better served at level 2, with the better references that we will have available to us.

Copy that.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Also, now that I've read it.  

 

There are a lot of second and third level effects that will have to be considered (and they will) to look at implementing changes like this.  

As anyone who has built an ANOVOS kit will attest, not all of the plastic is the same color in each of the kits. So, as Clint alluded to, and Germain acknowledged above, the wording that goes into any changes with this kit will have to be very carefully decided upon in order to ensure that it is all-encompassing and not exclusionary or favorable to any particular kit moving forward, which can be tough, but as a community and as a Command Staff, we're up to the task.

[Barcoder[TK]]

I understand the reasoning behind this, I really do. (Having built a kit myself, I know the pain of "seamlessness". lol)

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a majority of the Clone armours require some parts to be seamless & painted...at basic level? Do they not suffer from constant maintenance & upkeep? (cracking seams, flaking paint, etc...)

Trust me, I want as many people in TFA armour as possible; I LOVE the new armour. But the fact is; it's not cheap. Many of the 501st costumes are expensive.

On the flip side, *some* of the TFA seamless parts do present a difference challenge compared to the Clones.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

I must admit I do have an absolute absence of any kind of knowledge in clone armors or their CRLs. If they indeed require a seamless appearance for base level, and people are used to it and accept it, maybe I'm wrong asking to change that. It just feels like a shame to me that those troopers can't be officially approved when they look so much like movie stormtroopers.

[Barcoder[TK]]

I must admit I do have an absolute absence of any kind of knowledge in clone armors or their CRLs. If they indeed require a seamless appearance for base level, and people are used to it and accept it, maybe I'm wrong asking to change that. It just feels like a shame to me that those troopers can't be officially approved when they look so much like movie stormtroopers.

I myself do not have a vast knowledge of Clone armour either, but have many in my garrison who offered suggestions on making things "seamless". There are parts on the clones that must be seamless (Biceps, etc...) but at the same time, I do believe there are parts that may not have to be. (almost stated as it's preferred?) I also believe that they ALL have to be painted.

But yes, I assume people accept it & are used to it...seeing as there are so many Clones.

[jimmiroquai[TK]]

Actually, based on some recent pics like from the Wired magazine feature, you can see that the biceps have a seam on the inside.  I believe the thighs also have a seam on the inside.  If you look at Finn's pic in the visual dictionary, the thighs overlap on the inside.  In one of the pics of the stormtroopers in the VD you can seam coming undone on the inside of the bicep.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

Actually, based on some recent pics like from the Wired magazine feature, you can see that the biceps have a seam on the inside.  I believe the thighs also have a seam on the inside.  If you look at Finn's pic in the visual dictionary, the thighs overlap on the inside.  In one of the pics of the stormtroopers in the VD you can seam coming undone on the inside of the bicep.

Correct. Those particularities are actually already mentionned in the CRL as seams that shouldn't be smoothed out.

[deadvision]

Actually, based on some recent pics like from the Wired magazine feature, you can see that the biceps have a seam on the inside. I believe the thighs also have a seam on the inside. If you look at Finn's pic in the visual dictionary, the thighs overlap on the inside. In one of the pics of the stormtroopers in the VD you can seam coming undone on the inside of the bicep.

Correct Jim! The thighs have a seam on the inside middle that closes with velcro. Most of the time you'll see the thighs not lined up inside. And believe it or not the seam is sometimes covered by white gaffers tape.

 

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[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

What's really funny about not approving those troopers is that GMLs stop approvals for all sorts of things that are not in the base level CRL. Many either make up stuff because they think they see it on screen or take things from L2/L3 and use them for base approval. But they can't use common sense when reading the words of a CRL. If you're going outside the L1 CRL it should work both ways with a healthy dose of common sense. Those troopers look amazing and that is what should matter, not a silly seam. We as a club should err on the side of inclusion. The culture of GML approvals is broken. 

 

With that said, I think the bicep seams and other seams should be put in the CRL as an OR for L1. But that is up to Tim what gets voted on later this year. 

 

-Eric

[shadan[TK]]

Very interesting reading the discussion so far. I'm looking forward to the outcomes and hopefully L2 and L3 requirements in the not too distant future.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Very interesting reading the discussion so far. I'm looking forward to the outcomes and hopefully L2 and L3 requirements in the not too distant future.

These things will not likely be put to a Detachment vote any time before August, based on the current Staff planning cycle for the year.