FOTK CRL Edit Proposition.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

FWIW, there is no requirement that there ever has to be a detachment vote. Mike Harrison re-wrote the MEPD deployed criteria with no vote at all. We do our best to take advisory votes. Realize in the end, L1 is not the detachments call. Detachments can only advise; the final decision is up to the LMO.

 

I think your countrymen have done a nice job bringing FOTK armor to life. I think we've all seen pix that the bicep is not seamless in the movie. As has been noted, clones have to go seamless on many parts, and it's just a fact of line of being a clone. The back/yoke I think I'd like to see more detailed shots of your suits. That is one piece there is no seam line clearly in the movie, same with the abdomen sides.

 

It sounds like the real issue is not wanting to paint the suit, not the fact that is has to go seamless. I guess a good question is: does it detract? For instance we don't allow people to Velcro the front of OT TK thighs or shins do we? What if someone said they wanted to? Is that OK?

 

What you'll need to convince people of is why do clones have to be seamless and the FO TK not, when it's clear on both suits there is no seam in these areas.

 

Right now I'm OK with the bicep and TD, but on the fence about the ab & yoke.

[TKRalf[TK]]

Just because LFL "approves" of them shouldn't necessarily translate to they should be approvable by us. If that were the case then what's stopping us from approving suits that match the OT Disneyland suits, which time and time again we rip on for not being accurate. <br><br>

This isn't a cheap hobby nor is it easy, but that's why places like FISD exist so that we can share knowledge for those willing to look for it.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

On 3/1/2016 at 2:01 PM, Daetrin said:

It sounds like the real issue is not wanting to paint the suit, not the fact that is has to go seamless. I guess a good question is: does it detract? For instance we don't allow people to Velcro the front of OT TK thighs or shins do we? What if someone said they wanted to? Is that OK?

 

What you'll need to convince people of is why do clones have to be seamless and the FO TK not, when it's clear on both suits there is no seam in these areas.

Hum, I guess if I tell you that Clones are the darkside of Star Wars and should not be debated about, you're not going to be pleased with that answer ? I honestly don't have strong arguments to oppose you on that. 

 

About forbidding to Velcro thighs on the ANH troopers, I have always seen this as a precaution to ensure that 501st troopers won't have their thighs to open during a troop. It's more a "practical" line of CRL rather than a "visual" line. Leaving the seams apparent on the FOTK doesn't imply the risk of the armor opening up during a troop, as long as parts are glued with an inside stripe (actually FOTK biceps should be velcroed on the inside seam).

 

However, when it comes to if having those extra seams left visible is distracting or not, the answer for me is clearly "no". It fades to the eye as soon as you step away from the armor, and to be honnest it barely appears on pictures.

 

------------------

 

 

And on a side note, I'm not fighting for myself here. I actually don't have a FOTK armor and none of the pictures I have posted are from me. I only helped creating the kit.

 

On 3/1/2016 at 3:10 PM, TKRalf said:

Just because LFL "approves" of them shouldn't necessarily translate to they should be approvable by us. If that were the case then what's stopping us from approving suits that match the OT Disneyland suits, which time and time again we rip on for not being accurate. <br><br>

True. However, for the stuff from this new trilogy, we can expect they'll be a lot better supplied.

Edited March 8, 2021 by gmrhodes13
link not working, removed gmrhodes13 2021

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

FWIW, there is no requirement that there ever has to be a detachment vote. Mike Harrison re-wrote the MEPD deployed criteria with no vote at all. We do our best to take advisory votes. Realize in the end, L1 is not the detachments call. Detachments can only advise; the final decision is up to the LMO.

 

 

This is no longer entirely true. In fact it is the other way around thanks to Anderson's Operating Protocol change last year. L1 is up to the det with the LMO advising. 

 

Here is the relevant section of the OP.

 

Two things changed last year:

 

First is that CRLs are the DL or det's responsibility. The CRLs shouldn't change unless both the DL (or CRL liaison) and the LMO agree. That means the LMO can't just drop changes into a det's lap as well. The DL is supposed to "solit feedback" from the membership to decide what to put in the CRLs. This thread counts as such. 

 

Second is that the LMO cannot add a costume to the roster until the det has finished the CRL. No more white boxes. This is rarely a problem for FISD but a lot of dets have empty CRLs. This is how the Legacy trooper, TFA TK, and Kylo Ren were added. (Because FISD is the model for the way dets should work)

 

The wording itself... in comic sans...

 

CRL Development

Costuming standards are developed by the detachments under the supervision of the LMO. In cases where there is no detachment affiliation, the LMO shall work directly with the member(s) to develop a standard.

 

By default, the Detachment Leader shall act as the CRL liaison to the LMO. The Detachment Leader may choose to designate one or more detachment members to act as CRL liaisons, if necessary.

• The detachment CRL liaison(s) shall solicit feedback from the membership and use that feedback to develop a standard that is fair and achievable while still maintaining the level of quality expected of the Legion.
• The detachment CRL liaison(s) may publish the content as a work in progress directly to 501st.com or submit changes to the LMO team.
• The LMO will review the CRL entry to ensure that it is accurate and represents an acceptable level of guidance.
• Completed CRLs will be marked as approved in the Legion membership database by the LMO and locked to prevent further editing. (see "CRL Revisions" below)

 

 

 

-Eric

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

 

About forbidding to Velcro thighs on the ANH troopers, I have always seen this as a precaution to ensure that 501st troopers won't have their thighs to open during a troop. It's more a "practical" line of CRL rather than a "visual" line. Leaving the seams apparent on the FOTK doesn't imply the risk of the armor opening up during a troop, as long as parts are glued with an inside stripe (actually FOTK biceps should be velcroed on the inside seam).

 

 

Have you ever noticed that the ANH forearm section says they need to be "closed" not glued. That is a historical artifact to ensure FX folks didn't have their forearms way open looking like crap. BUT the wording was carefully not ever changed to allow velcro. In fact I know of a handful of folks who went EIB with well hidden velcro in their forearms. Some of us have really big hands ya know!

 

The ANH thighs are worded the same way too and never changed: "Thigh armor shall be closed in the back."

 

Put velcro on your thighs if you want, it's a very silly thing to do, but not forbidden. Just make sure you buy thin velcro and it isn't seen under your cover strip!

 

-Eric

[mitcheg1[501st]]

Haven't read all of the responses but wanted to throw in my two cents. It would seem the biggest argument here is whether the yoke and abs should be seemless or not. The biceps and forearms probably fall in the category as well, since they have seems that should be cleanly covered. The thighs and shins have definite seems that should be there (and curved) for true screen accuracy. But whether the CRL should enforce this or nor is not what I'm chiming in on.

 

The argument is that the CRL should be flexible, because it's too expensive to fill and paint... You spent $1800 on an armor kit and $20 worth of bondo and $30 worth of paint is exorbitant? This strikes me as odd. The FOTK, unlike our classic TK brothers are sleak and clean (iPhone trooper right). That's what makes them stand out as the next generation of stormtrooper. Just my two cents.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

This is no longer entirely true. In fact it is the other way around thanks to Anderson's Operating Protocol change last year. L1 is up to the det with the LMO advising. 

 

Here is the relevant section of the OP.

 

Two things changed last year:

 

First is that CRLs are the DL or det's responsibility. The CRLs shouldn't change unless both the DL (or CRL liaison) and the LMO agree. That means the LMO can't just drop changes into a det's lap as well. The DL is supposed to "solit feedback" from the membership to decide what to put in the CRLs. This thread counts as such. 

 

Second is that the LMO cannot add a costume to the roster until the det has finished the CRL. No more white boxes. This is rarely a problem for FISD but a lot of dets have empty CRLs. This is how the Legacy trooper, TFA TK, and Kylo Ren were added. (Because FISD is the model for the way dets should work)

 

The wording itself... in comic sans...

 

 

 

-Eric

Thanks - this is a big change from the past.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

This question is for Germain, knowing how you love to correct me on every decision I make you find questionable, would you still be giving this armor your stamp of approval if you didn't have a hand in helping to design it? 

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

This question is for Germain, knowing how you love to correct me on every decision I make you find questionable, would you still be giving this armor your stamp of approval if you didn't have a hand in helping to design it? 

Haha, nicely put.

I very much agree with you that being involved in the creation of this kit (not much though), I am of course biased. However I like to think I am not headstrong or stupid enough to deny the truth when it's shown to me. This armor kit is not by any means perfect, but it's easily up to the 501st standards, and I would give it my "seal of approval" (for what it's worth) even if I wasn't involve into it. There's a simple reason for that: in one of these pictures I've posted, this armor is standing next to three promotional armor suits (sent by Disney or LFL I don't remember) coming from Pinewood, England. And the difference is minimal.

Yes those armors were promotional ones and not the real deal, but trust me they were far better than the ANOVOS'.

[ukswrath[Staff]]

lol, well I hate to burst your facts bubble but let me clarify a couple things.

 

From the picture you've provided you state the suits to the right of your guy are either Disney or LFL. Well I've seen the 1 piece upper torso Disney costumes up close they look nothing like these. I've also seen hi res pics of the suits that Disney supposedly borrowed from Pinewood for the red carpet premiere, again they look different from these suits, how?  The troopers in your picture have no shoulder supports.

 

Then we have LFL, i'm assuming you're referring to the movie armor, which these are not them either as again, there are no shoulder supports.

 

Which leaves us with Anovos, which I believe that 's what were looking at. If these are indeed Anovos suits but you say they're promotional suits and are "far better than Anovos" then, well that's just confusing, not to mention what does that say about your guy?

 

Taking a step backwards in costuming because you believe the bar is too high is a step in the wrong direction, don't you think?  

 

 

 

LFL or movie armor, no shoulder drop

[Fedaykin[TK]]

totally unrelated but oh my god reading this thread makes me even more scared starting my tfa tk ... so many details i am not aware of.

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

totally unrelated but oh my god reading this thread makes me even more scared starting my tfa tk ... so many details i am not aware of.

 

It is not a simple costume

 

Even without the detail haggling going on. 

 

-Eric

[deadvision]

What's shoulder drop? I'm a bit confused.

 

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[ukswrath[Staff]]

What's shoulder drop? I'm a bit confused.

 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

It's when the shoulder bell sits below the level of the yoke. The movie armor has a support brace to keep it level.

[Fedaykin[TK]]

It is not a simple costume

 

Even without the detail haggling going on. 

 

-Eric

 

It surely is but i am confident to be able to bring something together although it probably won't be as good as those of established members.

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

It surely is but i am confident to be able to bring something together although it probably won't be as good as those of established members.

 

That's why we're here sir.

 

For the record: I love the haggling. 

 

-Eric

[ukswrath[Staff]]

It surely is but i am confident to be able to bring something together although it probably won't be as good as those of established members.

 

No worries Thomas. There are plenty of great build threads out there to follow. Just find one that appeals to your style and have fun. Some of us may be a bit OCD but don't let that frighten you 

[shadan[TK]]

... Some of us may be a bit OCD ...

 

I did notice this! 

Then again I'm a bit CDO so it should work in my favour.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

lol, well I hate to burst your facts bubble but let me clarify a couple things.

 

From the picture you've provided you state the suits to the right of your guy are either Disney or LFL. Well I've seen the 1 piece upper torso Disney costumes up close they look nothing like these. I've also seen hi res pics of the suits that Disney supposedly borrowed from Pinewood for the red carpet premiere, again they look different from these suits, how?  The troopers in your picture have no shoulder supports.

 

Then we have LFL, i'm assuming you're referring to the movie armor, which these are not them either as again, there are no shoulder supports.

 

Which leaves us with Anovos, which I believe that 's what were looking at. If these are indeed Anovos suits but you say they're promotional suits and are "far better than Anovos" then, well that's just confusing, not to mention what does that say about your guy?

 

Taking a step backwards in costuming because you believe the bar is too high is a step in the wrong direction, don't you think?  

 

First, this picture is from Hot Toys. You can question my eyes, now let me question yours. Unless your point was just to illustrate the shoulder drop?

 

These armors were not ANOVOS. I am absolutely positive about it. Helmets were different, the detonator was accurately shaped (had the correct outwards curve to better fit with the abdominal plate), the gaskets were much better, and all details of better quality (for instance: chest emblem, holster rig on the thigh had the correct profile).

However, we spoke with the extras who wore the armors and they told us they were different from the original armors as they also had the chance to wear them before. These armors seemed to be vacuum formed in thick ABS and according to the extras, much lighter than originals. Lastly, these armors weren't even finished the day of the troop. They did the final adjustements and built the belts during the rehearsals. The shoulder bells didn't have the little bracket to support them, but they were strapped accurately with the two straps coming through the yoke just like it should.

 

But honestly, we are swaying way from the topic here. I am not here to defend the accuracy of this kit or the way original armors and promotional were built, but to inquire about the CRL.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

For the record: I love the haggling. 

 

-Eric

Right?  

[ukswrath[Staff]]

First, this picture is from Hot Toys. You can question my eyes, now let me question yours. Unless your point was just to illustrate the shoulder drop?

 

These armors were not ANOVOS. I am absolutely positive about it. Helmets were different, the detonator was accurately shaped (had the correct outwards curve to better fit with the abdominal plate), the gaskets were much better, and all details of better quality (for instance: chest emblem, holster rig on the thigh had the correct profile).

However, we spoke with the extras who wore the armors and they told us they were different from the original armors as they also had the chance to wear them before. These armors seemed to be vacuum formed in thick ABS and according to the extras, much lighter than originals. Lastly, these armors weren't even finished the day of the troop. They did the final adjustements and built the belts during the rehearsals. The shoulder bells didn't have the little bracket to support them, but they were strapped accurately with the two straps coming through the yoke just like it should.

 

But honestly, we are swaying way from the topic here. I am not here to defend the accuracy of this kit or the way original armors and promotional were built, but to inquire about the CRL.

 

Oh I'm sorry, you're correct I though we were here to debate whether you thought it was asking too much for certain sections of the armor to look correct even at the basic level. Carry on

 

And BTW I know this is a hot toys pic would you like me to post the original?

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

Oh I'm sorry, you're correct I though we were here to debate whether you thought it was asking too much for certain sections of the armor to look correct even at the basic level. Carry on

I feel like I'm talking with a wall... Why don't you go back and read again my posts? Yes leaving those seams doesn't look screen accurate. Is it a dramatic difference? No.

Almost identical to having or not the very visible screw heads from the brackets on an ANH stormtrooper. Yet it's not in the CRL.

 

And BTW I know this is a hot toys pic would you like me to post the original?

Of course. Posting a Hot Toys picture as reference only make you look like someone who don't know what he's posting and realizes afterwards. Not good for your, FOTK expert reputation.

Edited March 2, 2016 by The5thHorseman

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

Also, I've been thinking back about the conparison with the clone armors, and had a look at some reference materials for them. The clone armor is by design absolutely seamless when the FOTK is not. The lower leg armor parts are seamed on both sides, the biceps are too on the inside and front, the forearms are also very clearly seamed. Not to mention seams incorporated into the design of the armor itself (sides of the chest plate).

So in my opinion adding few more visible seams to the armor is not as distracting or denaturating as what it would be with a clone armor.

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

Folks,

 

Cut out the personal attacks and name calling. It's getting a little too adversarial for my tastes.

 

Imagine you're a new person to FISD reading this thread. What would you think of our community? Keep that in mind when you feel accusatory.

 

Keep it civil and professional or don't post at all.

 

Thanks,

 

-Eric

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tusken RTT]

Felt it a good time to jump in here;  not related to the seams, but it is related to the CRL. 

As I start to build my kit, if I go cloth gaskets, will that pass the 'rubber or shiny black material' criteria?  Not sure how shiny cloth gaskets are looking for everyone.  Happy to go rubber if that is what it takes for approval, but dont want to have to buy two sets. 

Thanks guys.