Legal Sterling Conversion In Cali

[cjdesign[TK]]

On 11/5/2015 at 7:40 AM, TK Bondservnt 2392 said:

the process of demil must not allow a full auto trigger group  to be in the weapon.  no working inner parts are allowed.

 

The best way to get this is to mill off the sear on the trigger group, which makes the trigger group legal.  ( the sear is the part that engages the bolt. )

it's best to get a gunsmith with a license to go over the assembly process with you, to ensure that you comply with county and state laws.

 

 the portion in red?? I spoke to a couple local gunsmiths and it was like deer in headlights... They were clueless.

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

that is part of the sear, and if milled off, ( a simple sander can do it )  it MIGHT be approved for installation.  The key to understanding NFA rules is that the full auto trigger group, and an unmodified trigger shroud are defined as the "machine gun" parts in addition to the real inner front barrel, and a real bolt.  when making a replica gun you have to weld in, or epoxy in a series of modifications that don't allow for the exchange of parts.  So the type of demil is a complete rendering of a simulated gun with no removable parts.

 

the Unique canes version is almost exactly like the bapty version used in the films, but it has a working trigger group.  I would assume they allow the action of the trigger group to function, while making it a non gun by removing the bolt, recoil buffer assembly and recoil springs.

 

if you remove the real bolt and replace it with an inner tube of steel or aluminum attached behind a plastic/resin bolt, you might be able to show that none of the inner parts can be exchanged, or modified.

 

 

see how there is no bolt? and no open cocking channel?

Edited November 5, 2015 by TK Bondservnt 2392

[cjdesign[TK]]

Of all the different firearms defined as NFA weapons, machineguns are the only type where the receiver of the weapon by itself is an NFA firearm. As a result, it is important that the receiver of a machinegun be properly identified. Lists the receiver L1A1 as Upper. I'm assuming the L2A3 is the same, but it's anybody's guess? Tried calling the number listed (ATF Technologies dept), but they re-direct you to a mailing address to send your inquires with a min. turnaround of 90 days. I guess I'm writing a letter...

 

 

 

 

 

[cjdesign[TK]]

Unlike the Bapty versions, with a solid plug expanding the entire receiver and covering the ejector port, this sterling build does not. (link below) The gentlemen describes his deactivated sterling as having a "SOLID metal plug where the bolt would normally be" but his ejector port is wide open.

 

http://sterlingblasterconversion.blogspot.com/2007/10/sterling-l2a3-mk4-to-blastech-e11.html

Edited November 5, 2015 by cjdesign

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

Unlike the Bapty versions, with a solid plug expanding the entire receiver and covering the ejector port, this sterling build does not. (link below) The gentlemen describes his deactivated sterling as having a "SOLID metal plug where the bolt would normally be" but his ejector port is wide open.

 

http://sterlingblasterconversion.blogspot.com/2007/10/sterling-l2a3-mk4-to-blastech-e11.html

The Upper is the section where the trigger group enters the receiver.

 

The person in that blog is in Virginia.  California Law, and BATF and NFA rules still apply to his build, he just has not gotten it approved.  your original post asks for a Legal conversion.

[cjdesign[TK]]

another interesting thread regarding "parts kit conversion" Dday chimes in as well.

http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=242868

[usaeatt2]

Having made the gut wrenching decision to cut my steel replica in half for legal reasons, I've thought quite a bit about Sterling demills.

I've heard LOTS of bad ideas about ways to demill a weapon - most DON'T meet the requirements and look terrible, IMHO.

 

Every demill I've seen looks BAD from an accuracy standpoint.

Here are a few examples:

 - Muzzle bolts welded externally to prevent barrel removal

 - Magwell hole welded shut so a real magazine can never be installed

 - Horrifying MIG welds

 - Charging slot filled

 - No bolt

 - No barrel

 - Trigger group welds with huge undercuts from too much amperage

 

With this in mind, I've developed my own ideas for a POSSIBLE demill that still passes the accuracy grade.

 

Since Carl is digging deep to find answers and Vern is helping out, I thought I'd throw these ideas in the mix.

 

1) Start with a CNC machined steel receiver tube from Dday.

2) Cut the tube in half, exactly in line with the rear of the barrel (you can use a resin barrel to get the spacing).

3) Fabricate a fake barrel using a tapped steel plate for the front, a steel tube and a solid steel plate for the rear.

4) Install the fake barrel, then fillet weld the entire rear plate to the receiver.

5) Weld the receiver back together.

6) Machine the trigger sear flat.

7) Tack weld the trigger group into the receiver at the front corners (under the receiver, not easily seen)

8) Drill a 1/4" hole in the front face of the bolt to remove any chance of installing a firing pin.

9) Install the modified bolt, springs, etc.

10) Weld a steel rod across the rear of the receiver so the internal parts can NEVER be removed or replaced.

11) Position the steel rod (mentioned above) so the welds are hidden by the end cap.

 

There's NO chamber, NO possibility of changing parts and NO possibility of loading or charging the weapon.

There's NO chance of ever firing a round, but the bolt, magazine and trigger still move.

At this point, you essentially have gun-shaped nut cracker.

For you guys doing the deep research, would this meet the ATF's rules for demills?

Or is there a snag somewhere?  Something that doesn't meet the rules?

 

If none of the parts can move, then you may as well carve your E-11 out of a brick.

What's the point of a replica if all the cool features are disabled?

Click, click...so my trigger makes noise...

It would be FAR easier to install lead weights in a resin/plastic toy and avoid the legalities.

 

Aaron

Edited November 6, 2015 by usaeatt2

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

The main point here is that we have to get the BATF NFA rules, and have a gunsmith go over a potential build.  it's one thing to want our cake and eat it too!

and it's another to face tax evasion, and prison, and 250,000.00 fine.

 

Aaron makes fine points here in a method, but you could probably get away with simply rebuilding the existing tube with some simple extentions.

[usaeatt2]

By "simple extensions", if you mean making new sections of tube to fit BETWEEN what's left of a parts kit tube...

Been there, done that.

Not so simple to end up with an exact length, perfectly straight receiver.

Not impossible, but it's way more fiddling around than I want to do again.

And then there's the unappealing part about drilling 76 PRECISELY spaced holes.

I know, you don't have to drill all the holes, but if you're going for accuracy, skipping holes is cheating.

Much easier, in my opinion, to start with a brand new tube.

 

I hadn't thought of consulting a gunsmith.

Definitely worthwhile, but ultimately, the ATF decides if it's demilled, no matter what the gunsmith says.

The advantage is having a third party (with no investment, financial or otherwise) who knows how to interpret the rules.

Good call, Vern.

[usaeatt2]

 

 I spoke to a couple local gunsmiths and it was like deer in headlights... They were clueless.

 

GS:  "Why don't we talk about building you a nice AR-15 instead?"

ME:  <walking towards the door...>

[cjdesign[TK]]

Unique Canes' response to my email asking the procedure in which he fabricates and sells his demils. So I guess you can weld the thing up solid like a Bapty and it's OK?? To Aaron's point they are ugly with everything sealed up. Couldn't we weld the bolt in place? no moving parts - right?

 

Hello Carl
Very complicated procedure with 1" Pipe welded inside a Torch Cut Demilled Receiver...No Internal Moving parts
 
AJ
 
Unique Canes & Replicas
click here:
http://www.uniquecanes.com
636-279-1570

Edited November 7, 2015 by cjdesign

[cjdesign[TK]]

in my case, I'm trying to use my unmolested barrel shroud. I got lucky because the front muzzle lines up perfect with the reciever on mine. Didn't entertain the idea of doing a pipe build and reattaching the sterling parts. I really want to use the original gun components. if that means bapty type - so be it. But for now I'm holding out for a better option.

Edited November 7, 2015 by cjdesign

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

in my case, I'm trying to use my unmolested barrel shroud. I got lucky because the front muzzle lines up perfect with the reciever on mine. Didn't entertain the idea of doing a pipe build and reattaching the sterling parts. I really want to use the original gun components. if that means bapty type - so be it. But for now I'm holding out for a better option.

 

I know how to help. 

[cjdesign[TK]]

I'm thinking this is the next best thing.... 100% 3mm abs. even has a folding stock. the scope is off a little but nothing you can't tweek.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Star-Wars-E-11-Blaster-Model-Replica-Accurate-1-1-Storm-Trooper-CosPlay-DIY-KIT-/331704999889?hash=item4d3b289fd1:g:hhwAAOSw~bFWLmHu

 

Parts List:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a2i6mb6vuo98h38/Parts%20List.pdf?dl=0

Edited November 11, 2015 by cjdesign

[SeanTX]

Having made the gut wrenching decision to cut my steel replica in half for legal reasons,

 

Wait what? Your gun is destroyed?

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

I'm thinking this is the next best thing.... 100% 3mm abs. even has a folding stock. the scope is off a little but nothing you can't tweek.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Star-Wars-E-11-Blaster-Model-Replica-Accurate-1-1-Storm-Trooper-CosPlay-DIY-KIT-/331704999889?hash=item4d3b289fd1:g:hhwAAOSw~bFWLmHu

 

Parts List:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a2i6mb6vuo98h38/Parts%20List.pdf?dl=0

 

This blaster is not up to my personal standards.  nice.. but not close enough.

[cjdesign[TK]]

Wait what? Your gun is destroyed?

 

assembled steel tube receiver, with original bolt and barrel is quite illegal! He basically built a nice looking live smg.

[SeanTX]

Why not just leave the mag well uncut. If you can't load a second bullet it isn't a machine gun. And use a nuce resin barrel. Without a real barrel it isn't even a gun.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

[cjdesign[TK]]

This blaster is not up to my personal standards.  nice.. but not close enough.

I agree, not how this seller built it... It looked good in the photos but upon further view was not as expected.

Edited November 15, 2015 by cjdesign

[cjdesign[TK]]

Why not just leave the mag well uncut. If you can't load a second bullet it isn't a machine gun. And use a nuce resin barrel. Without a real barrel it isn't even a gun.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I257 using Tapatalk

 

My parts kit is still intact... If you would like to ask questions regarding Aaron's "E11 Pipe Build" post here. Thanks in advance.

http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/26960-e-11-steel-pipe-build/

Edited November 11, 2015 by cjdesign

[charlesnarles]

According to the amentioned NFA handbook, if you get a Sten parts kit and also have an 80% receiver (their example) then you are in possession of a machinegun and need to tell the gov't. Regardless of having a barrel or magazine, the kit itself with the receiver could be made into something that shoots more than one bullet per trigger pull = "MG." So maybe permanently removing the part of the trigger pak that interacts with the bolt would be sufficient? Not that a resin bolt or Bluetooth speaker could shoot a bullet without exploding first, let alone two in a row.. I do understand their intent, and at least they've never raised the registration fee, but at this point it'd be cheaper to just buy one finished for $450. I'll ask my profs about this one just to see what they think. A few of them are still practicing attnys. "What unmakes an MG (in CA)?"

[Dday[501st]]

What if the bolt was internally welded in place? Or there were bars inserted and covered that stopped the action?

[cjdesign[TK]]

Well!? The conclusion.. it's not very practical (weight) or easy (legal) to create a 100% all parts sterling blaster without some blow back and potential criminal charges. The closest thing, per Vern's suggestion, is a Bapty build. If it was good enough for Lucas - right? No moving parts. no trigger, solid core of aluminum.

 

Fortunately for me, I stumbled upon a parts kit unique in every aspect. Imported over a decade ago, saw cut, original finish, 0% rust and A+ condition. In order to gain a different perspective on the subject, I Joined uzitalk.com's Sterlings/SMG section, to see what their community had to say. The reaction was unanimous "Dummy Gun? why are you not building a legal semi auto out if it" or offers to buy pieces of my kit.

 

In the interim, I've decided to build a display blaster out of it... and if I move to a more gun/tax friendly state in the near future (thinking hard), I may convert it to a real semi-auto.

 

Regardless, I'm still in need of a blaster to complete my EIB and centurion.. so I've ordered some stand alone sterling parts from apex (ready install stock, screws, breach grip) and purchased doopydoos pipe build ( Looking to pick up Dday's esb kit as well when there avalable) to create the ultimate hybrid steel/aluminum/resin blaster for my day to day trooping.

 

To be continued...

Edited November 15, 2015 by cjdesign

[charlesnarles]

Logically, if a mod to a small part of an H and K trigger pak can change it from semi to full-auto, and if there were lots of Sterling auto-to-semi police conversions (Mk6), then that's what I would want to do. Not a functional conversion, just the trigger pak. Then it's just a semi rifle receiver with no bolt or barrel... eh?

Edited November 15, 2015 by charlesnarles

[cjdesign[TK]]

Logically, if a mod to a small part of an H and K trigger pak can change it from semi to full-auto, and if there were lots of Sterling auto-to-semi police conversions (Mk6), then that's what I would want to do. Not a functional conversion, just the trigger pak. Then it's just a semi rifle receiver with no bolt or barrel... eh?

You can buy both auto and semi-auto trigger assembly on apex guns - sold out though. I ground down my sear on my original, so now it's not functional either way.

 

For the display, I'm planning on assembling the parts onto a solid core aluminum rod to act as a skeletal frame. The bar will help align the parts kit so it will appear fully assembled but ultimately still a parts kits. Maybe lightly glued with e6000 in some spots. Just an idea at this point.

Edited November 25, 2015 by cjdesign