TFA Trooper Designation

[tk fett[TK]]

Could have sworn I heard a TK designation. I'm about to watch for second time. I'll confirm. Watching previews now.

 

 

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they did. but in the credits they listed FN-**** & FN-****

[TK21029[TK]]

There was two mentions of TKs in the movie too. Maybe they were guys who were in the empire too

 

 

Sent from a galaxy far far away

[Daetrin[Admin]]

That was more about the evolution and the path detachments took at the time than a planned logical separation between TK and TD based on costume differences. See Daetrln for a history lesson. FYI I think Mepd came first before FISD.

 

I guess the thing to do if the FO's want FN in front of their number they may want to nag the LMO to create a new detachment for the new stormy. He may say that there are enough variations to support that. (I don't agree)

 

But if you do decide to be more self contained please do elect Clint Randall the first DL.

 

If it stays on FISD it remains TK for as long as I am DL (unless the LMO tells me to do otherwise)

 

What happens when they're called something else in EP8? Or they're called TK a lot more often?

 

Word.

 

-Eric

 

 

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Facts:

 

1. In the beginning of the Legion, we used TK as Legion numbers, as it started out as all stormtroopers, and TK-421 was named in the film. Thus everyone was TK-something. This is many years ago.

2. SL's came in next, so at that point they were costume designators.

3. The Legion made up the costume designations for TB, TD, TS, TC. There is no basis for them at all, just wanting to start with T for trooper.

4. There is no 1:1 match of detachments and costume designations. SL is covered by 2 detachments, and IOC has 3 different costume designations. Blizzard Force also has TS & TB.

5. Even if we went with FN for FO stormtrooper, there is no need to make a new detachment to first to make the designation stand (see #4)

6. Even if a new detachment were created (for whatever reason, FO stormtroopers can still have a 501st TK costume designation (see #4)

7. If the 501st were consistent about costume designations, the FO stormtroopers would probably be called TF (trooper - first order) or FO (first order), not FN.

8. As noted, FN isn't something used across all FO stormtroopers, just one batch of them, weakening the logic of using FN as a costume designation even further

 

In short, the chances of using FN is slim to zero, based on logic and reason.

[asu_marine[501st]]

Facts:

 

1. In the beginning of the Legion, we used TK as Legion numbers, as it started out as all stormtroopers, and TK-421 was named in the film. Thus everyone was TK-something. This is many years ago.

2. SL's came in next, so at that point they were costume designators.

3. The Legion made up the costume designations for TB, TD, TS, TC. There is no basis for them at all, just wanting to start with T for trooper.

4. There is no 1:1 match of detachments and costume designations. SL is covered by 2 detachments, and IOC has 3 different costume designations. Blizzard Force also has TS & TB.

5. Even if we went with FN for FO stormtrooper, there is no need to make a new detachment to first to make the designation stand (see #4)

6. Even if a new detachment were created (for whatever reason, FO stormtroopers can still have a 501st TK costume designation (see #4)

7. If the 501st were consistent about costume designations, the FO stormtroopers would probably be called TF (trooper - first order) or FO (first order), not FN.

8. As noted, FN isn't something used across all FO stormtroopers, just one batch of them, weakening the logic of using FN as a costume designation even further

 

In short, the chances of using FN is slim to zero, based on logic and reason.

 

You bring up some great points here, but you lost me at the end there.

 

I don't think there is any reason for a new detachment at this time (who knows about the future and future FO costumes). But we have several canon sources supporting the FN designation (Finn FN-2187, 2 credited FNs in the film FN-3181 & FN-8330, and the visual guide calling out FN-2003), at this point we don't even know if the TK mentions weren't mistakes (we don't approve white duct tape, but that's in the movies). Something not yet considered are the FO Flametrooper and FO Snowtrooper, where do those end up? The FN designation is the fastest easiest and most logical way to designate the FO costumes as being different and record them together.

 

As listed above (See #4) that designation can cover many costumes across several detachments. It could even just end up being the 501st designation for all FO costumes in Episode 7. 

 

We have several 100% original costumes coming in from a new movie, that represent a new completely different evil organization, but we are just going to call them the same as those guys 30+ years ago? (But sandies, will be TDs, because ..... dirt.)

[Locitus[Admin]]

Something not yet considered are the FO Flametrooper and FO Snowtrooper, where do those end up?

Easy - they end up here here, (we already have incinerators which are basically the same thing) and at blizzard force for the snowies.

[VGTrooper[TK]]

You bring up some great points here, but you lost me at the end there.

 

I don't think there is any reason for a new detachment at this time (who knows about the future and future FO costumes). But we have several canon sources supporting the FN designation (Finn FN-2187, 2 credited FNs in the film FN-3181 & FN-8330, and the visual guide calling out FN-2003), at this point we don't even know if the TK mentions weren't mistakes (we don't approve white duct tape, but that's in the movies). Something not yet considered are the FO Flametrooper and FO Snowtrooper, where do those end up? The FN designation is the fastest easiest and most logical way to designate the FO costumes as being different and record them together.

 

As listed above (See #4) that designation can cover many costumes across several detachments. It could even just end up being the 501st designation for all FO costumes in Episode 7. 

 

We have several 100% original costumes coming in from a new movie, that represent a new completely different evil organization, but we are just going to call them the same as those guys 30+ years ago? (But sandies, will be TDs, because ..... dirt.)

 

Agreed. The FN designation is used more in TFA than any other designation in Star Wars movies and people want to disregard it? It seems like people just don't want a new designation for simply hating change. It makes sense though. And also agreed that with as many new outfits coming in it would be faster and easier to create a new designation for them to help separate between OT and NT (new trilogy) outfits. If we stick with TK there is going to be the issue of separation when creating and applying for events where we would have to call out outfits types, do we just stick with FOTK and TK? Would be easier to just be able to ask for FN or TK instead. And for those that have both OT TK and FO TK, I would think it would be nicer to be able to have a separate designation for them. I know when I end up with my approved FOTK outfit I would rather go by FN for that one than just simply continue the TK designation again. Same for those that have TS outfits and also get the new FO Snowtrooper outfit. Would be nicer to call them something like FS instead of FOTS. Better to use a new designation rather than call ALL new outfits that also exist in the old trilogy as FO(insert existing designation) all the time.

 

As TJ (asu_marine) said, you want to just call them TK like the ones from 30 years previous, but Sandies get a new title because of dirt? Come on guys, it just makes sense and helps separate the new outfits from the OT ones.

 

 

I do agree on leaving detachments alone though. With new designation (a simple change) it allows the new outfits to fit into the existing detachments very easily.

[Locitus[Admin]]

It's not really up to debate though.

[Lichtbringer]

It's not really up to debate though.

 

Who cares?

 

It´s fun.

[camprandall]

This is an interesting discussion. Here's what I think after reading all the arguments.

 

1) The rough "pattern" that I see in our costume reference library seems to be in most cases a class of character, not uniqueness of costume nor a title from the movies. The bounty hunters vary wildly and are all BH. The Sith Lords are SL and the Krayt clan are DZ. There are many many more examples. They span two different movie trilogies and the EU that have large gaps between them and rarely correspond to any "title" or prefix from the movies and certainly not a single costume.

 

2) Stormtroopers are unique in our little universe in that they are so well known as TK. No other detachment is quite that attached to an identifier because Stormtroopers were first and rooted in a reference in a movie. In nearly every other detachment, this isn't the case. We also don't have as much variance in the costumes as many other detachments because of the popularity of the costume and sheer numbers. But even there we have a McQuarrie Stormtrooper vs Deathtroopers vs OT Stormtroopers. So in the case of getting confused about TK vs FOTK - well, people say "Boba Fett" vs "Bossk" because BH isn't a unique identifier. It seems that the primary use of the prefix as a class of character and not a unique identifier is just inevitably going to extend to us in a bigger way now that there are so many costumes and most people won't understand FN anyways. They are primarily internal references for organizational sake. Does anyone outside of Krayt clan really understand immediately what a "DZ" is?

 

3) People have strong personal feelings about this either way and we have to figure out what makes the most sense apart from our attachment to it. Some people are very excited to finally get a TK designation and yet a lot of other people are frustrated to build a new costume (and a freaking hard and expensive one!) and not get a new designation. I think the argument there unfortunately falls to keeping the same designation because most of the other detachments have the same issue. Again, you may have a Darth Vader, but you build a Darth Maul and you get no new designation. I think we just have to realize that it's not the norm to get a unique one per costume.

 

4) On a practical level, there is also the issue that that we already have a ton of separate detachments and forums with their own moderators and need for support so I'd consider that carefully before spinning off into a new one. It's already tough to keep track of so many separate forums and it feels weird to me that Boushh and Greedo are in one forum, Gamorrean Guard and a Jawa are in the same forum, but OT Stormtrooper and NT Stormtrooper would be in different forums. We have to group these at some level or we'd have 100's of detachments and forums. Heck, I think if we could have thought through the future better, Sandy's and Biker Scouts and Snowtroopers would also be here too because they are a lot more similar in class of character than the way other detachments are grouped. There's just a practical concern of knowing that the costume base is going to continue expanding greatly and it's much more efficient as an organization to find the best match and put them there unless there somehow manages to emerge a new class of character. Maz Kanata might be one such character - but who wants to build a website and start a forum for one character?

 

All of this for me is strong argument against a new detachment and designation - and that's considering that I'd LOVE to have an FN ID along with my TK ID. The reality though is that it's not the common use case in the Legion regardless of personal feelings or movie references. We're already seeing a heavy use of FOTK in regular conversation within the Legion and I think FN won't really help there anyways unless it only pertains to a single costume. You will still have to say FO Flametrooper or FO Officer or FO Snowtrooper because that's just what happens when a whole new series of movies come out and the names aren't clearly new to the universe. In 6 years, we'll have 6 new movies so we're unavoidably headed to even broader groupings.

[Cody42[TK]]

I'd love to have FN in front of my number. Who stops me from calling myself FN-4172? Nobody I assume. As long as FN ist not an official designation for differen 501st costumes I don't see a problem. Just my official costume designation is and will be TK-4172. When trooping in theaters since the premiere it made sense to me to answer children who ask me "What's your name" with "FN-4172" as a direct reference to Finns FN designation which is mentioned prominently in the movie. Also the box where I keep the armor has a label that says FN-4172 just because I didn't want to reuse the TK-label of my old stromtrooper (now sandtrooper) armor.

 

As for the official designations, Clint's arguments make sense to me. A lot of extremely different costumes already share the same identifier and for everyone who wants to build a stormtrooper this should be the place to go to and not yet another forum.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Cody42

[Locitus[Admin]]

What you present yourself as to people at troops is up to you. Be FN-Donald Duck for all we care.

[stormtrooperguy[501st]]

Friendly neighborhood LMO here.

 

For the record, we will NOT be changing the designation of the TFA troopers to FN. They are, for our purposes, TKs just like the classic stormies.

 

The 2 letter designation used to be how costumes were identified. Eventually we grew to where people would have multiple costumes that fell into "SL" or "TK", so the database was updated to use the name of the character as the unique identifier. At that point, the 2 leter designations had no further functional purpose.

 

Today they exist either to unify or divide, depending on your perspective: Some want to have new designations to show that they are unique amongst the troops of the Legion. Others want to revel in the community of BH/TK/SL etc... 

 

To me, FISD is much more about all coming together as TKs than it is about THOSE TROOPERS having one designation and THESE TROOPERS having another. 

 

So, for as long as I have a voice in it, TKs will be TKs.

[mitcheg1[501st]]

Clint's point is well put and I agree with Cody's position! As a new FOTK, I would love to be able to recognized as FN-33724, noting that I am new to this organization, and as an homage to The Force Awakens. From a Legion perspective, It makes sense that my costume will be a TK, per Clint's argument, but as Cody points out, I reserve the right to refer to myself during troops as FN-33724.

 

I would think that should be an acceptable compromise. My costume is a TK, but my name is FN. thoughts?

[Pencap510]

I felt like regardless of what I'm "technically" called as member designation, during troops I was planning on being FN. The people we troop for only know the movies - and truth be told not as many as you think know what the heck a "TK" is.. FN is mentioned countless times in the new movie. I agree for our destination, it's a stormtrooper... TK. For troops, I'll report in as FN ... Unless of course I'm wearing my ANH

Edited December 21, 2015 by Pencap510

[Daetrin[Admin]]

The LMO has said no, so any discussion is moot at this point. Move along folks...

[Lichtbringer]

Tell the legion what it wants to hear - then turn around and do what you want. 

[mitcheg1[501st]]

It was as if millions of voices cried out... and were suddenly silenced!

[Pickles[TK]]

FN is probably the designation for Imperial janitors

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Everyone has a voice, until it is muted

[stormtrooperguy[501st]]

The maintenance of the membership database internals is based on practicality, not as a means for recognition. I get that folks like that feeling of being one of a few FNs vs. one of a few thousand TKs, but there's no functional need. <br><br>

The Deathwatch was told no last year when they asked for a new designation. Deathtroopers asked for it, reserve TIE pilots asked for it... pretty close to every new to the Legion costume has tried for a new designation. <br><br>

The last time it was actually done, the DS, was done because SL is a very narrowly focused thing: Sith Lord. There were multiple characters that would fit the new DS concept, with a pipeline of more coming. If there was just one character that needed it, I doubt it would have been done (though as I was not personally involved, I can't say for sure)

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

FN is probably the designation for Imperial janitors

Now there is a detachment we need to move this costuming club into the future.

 

-Eric

 

 

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[Dark PWF[Staff]]

FN = Filth Neutralizer. Sanitation.<br><br>

In war, regardless of trained job, every Soldier is an infantry Soldier. In the Star Wars universe, that means that every Stormtrooper is a TK whether his or her specialty is sanitation, combat photographer, food preparation, or infantry.<br><br>

Clint and Cody covered it pretty well for me. When people ask your name, tell them you're Mickey Mouse, TK-421, or FN-421. Whatever makes you happy.

[Lichtbringer]

In war, regardless of trained job, every Soldier is an infantry Soldier.

 

Definately NO.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Definately NO.

Well, in the US Army and Marine Corps, that's what they teach, and it is why they all attend Basic Combat Training before their specific job training so I say definitely YES.

 

But... what do I know?

 

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[Astyanax]

Okay, devil's advocate here, so don't flame or ban me, but if the FO troopers are absorbed into FISD, wouldn't you want to consider renaming the detachment to FSD? The new troopers are most definitely not "Imperial"...

 

::ducking around the corner::