The Force Awakens Stormtrooper CRL

[sylverbard[TK]]

We don't have finished costumes. We don't have boots. Simple. Until the lmo says we have a finished costume why rush it. I can wait for boots. I'll bet half the 75 haven't touched their rubber gaskets yet...

[Beltz[TK]]

Seems the LMO has deemed the costume to need a finished CRL before anyone can be approved.

That makes sense in this case. If the LMO is going to get a slug of 50 applications right away and another 75 by the end of the year, there is no point making the approval process harder for them than it needs to be.

[stormtrooperguy[501st]]

That makes sense in this case. If the LMO is going to get a slug of 50 applications right away and another 75 by the end of the year, there is no point making the approval process harder for them than it needs to be.

That is exactly it. Generally "new to the Legion" costumes come in very slowly... 1-2 of them, then a CRL, then handoff to the GMLs. In this case "new to the Legion" could be as many as 75 on day one. That's not going to be effective for anyone.

 

So, we decided to try out a new way of doing it: CRL first, then approvals. Lots of people have asked for this over the years, since the current model means you have to finish your suit, submit it, then get deferred for reasons you didn't know existed.

 

This way, we can agree on what a TFA trooper should look like first, then we can have people submit costumes that will follow the standards.

 

Less pain all around.

 

Regarding evolution, base vs level 2/3, etc... I really think we should focus on base, and not compare to the OT suits all that much. We've had 40 years to argue about the details of a classic TK, of course we're going to be really, really good at it.

 

For the TFA costumes (all of them, not just the TK) we're starting from scratch. If you look at an animated clone suit from 2009 vs. today, the build is going to be very much different. This is going to be the same. We're not going to be perfect the first time around, nor should we try to be.

 

To address a couple of specific things: I have no problem with gloves and boots that aren't 100% exact matches to screen used being acceptable for base approval.

 

Personally, I think the TFA troopers I've seen are perfectly fine for Legion membership, exactly as is.

[kwdesigns[TK]]

I believe that was my costume. I sent some pictures to my GML for temp approval at local events and he ran it up the flagpole to the legion. Don't worry, they came back pretty quick and said no approvals until the CRL is done.

 

https://flic.kr/s/aHskbPinHE

 

 

By no means am I trying to knock you down on your assembly, I know everyone was giving a very short time frame to do it. I commend you for talking the time to take so many good pics. (Should you be 501st approved in it ..Yes). But I feel this should not be the kit/parts used in the CRLs to represent what the kit/parts should look like. Unfortunate too many of your parts are not trimmed correctly. All the edges should have a nice smooth rolled edge.  You did not cut or sand enough of the cut edge away causing it to have extra flair on the ends of the return edges. Also it look like the wrist box what not assembled correctly but that could just be the view I see with the pictures. I just wouldn't want others to follow this as the example of how to do it.

 

Kevin W.

Edited May 21, 2015 by kwdesigns

[TK4205]

I believe that was my costume. I sent some pictures to my GML for temp approval at local events and he ran it up the flagpole to the legion. Don't worry, they came back pretty quick and said no approvals until the CRL is done.

 

https://flic.kr/s/aHskbPinHE

I'm no expert on this costume. But give me time, I've built only one. But if I had to critique anything about your suit, I would say you need to pad your bucket so it doesn't ride so low. We also have a bigger bucket than I think is intended. As far as the build goes, it looks OK to me with what we have to go on so far. I think that is the whole point here; I can't imagine the TFA trooper getting approved before the CRL is finished, and I don't imagine the CRL being finished before the movie even comes out. preview accurate armor is not movie accurate armor.

 

Not to belittle the hard work that the first 75 invested, but a new costume is just a new costume and shouldn't be granted any special favors. I am glad that it wasn't "approved on the spot" like had been intended.

[Crocoboxer]

I can't imagine the TFA trooper getting approved before the CRL is finished, and I don't imagine the CRL being finished before the movie even comes out. preview accurate armor is not movie accurate armor.

 

There were two screen-used costumes on mannequins at Celebration that were provided by Lucasfilm. Thousands of detailed photos of these two suits were taken and have been posted. Isn't that enough to build a CRL?

 

We have a CRL for the Snowtrooper Commander and that is never seen on film below the chest. The entire CRL is based on one snapshot taken as a test. There was a screen used TIE Pilot armor set in the Prop Store of London's booth and a detachment staff member of the Jolly Rogers told me, after confirming with the owner that it is indeed confirmed to be screen used, he would have to update the CRL based on this suit. 

 

So how is it that two complete screen-used costumes presented publically and thoroughly documented is not enough for us to build a CRL? For once we have an unprecedented opportunity to know many details of a costume before the movie comes out. And when it does, there is no guarantee that we will have the same level of detail on-screen that we saw at Celebration.  

Edited May 21, 2015 by Crocoboxer

[Beltz[TK]]

By no means am I trying to knock you down on your assembly, I know everyone was giving a very short time frame to do it. I commend you for talking the time to take so many good pics.

 

No offense taken Kevin. I can look at builds that I have spent months on and find dozens of imperfections and things that I don't like on them. There is tons of room for improvement on this kit and with it being a three week build and you being an expert on the subject, I'm not surprised you could make a laundry list of ways to make it better.

 

Now that the deadline pressure is off, I'll keep plugging away at it.

[Beltz[TK]]

But if I had to critique anything about your suit, I would say you need to pad your bucket so it doesn't ride so low.

 

Thanks Wyatt. I do need to figure something out in that area. I actually took the crown padding out so that the helmet comes down far enough for me to see. It seemed like a few of the folks I saw at SWCA had the no neck issue as well. I'll keep tinkering with it until it comes together.

[TK4205]

There were two screen-used costumes on mannequins at Celebration that were provided by Lucasfilm. Thousands of detailed photos of these two suits were taken and have been posted. Isn't that enough to build a CRL?

 

We have a CRL for the Snowtrooper Commander and that is never seen on film below the chest. The entire CRL is based on one snapshot taken as a test. There was a screen used TIE Pilot armor set in the Prop Store of London's booth and a detachment staff member of the Jolly Rogers told me, after confirming with the owner that it is indeed confirmed to be screen used, he would have to update the CRL based on this suit. 

 

So how is it that two complete screen-used costumes presented publically and thoroughly documented is not enough for us to build a CRL? For once we have an unprecedented opportunity to know many details of a costume before the movie comes out. And when it does, there is no guarantee that we will have the same level of detail on-screen that we saw at Celebration.  

Standing face to face with the stormtroopers in the TFA room is what made me question the accuracy of the anovos kit. 

They got very close with their vac formed interpretation, but it's simply not accurate. I believe it could be built up with bondo or similar, to reach the required accuracy, but accurate out of the box it is not. 

[kme1682[TK]]

Hi Wyatt,

 

Would be willing/able to clarify your comments? The way they read to me is that vac forming may not create ultra-sharp edges that would appear through an injection-molding method. Is this the basis for which there is a lack of accuracy? If so, then I wonder whether a particular build method such as injection-molding or "build up with bondo" would become a requirement of a CRL, which is what I assume you are proporting in order to "reach the required accuracy." My concern is the cost-prohibitive method for one and manual handicraft introducing errors on the other. Is there another method that you envision would provide the required accuracy? I fully invite clarification if I've misunderstood. I would like to understand where you're coming from when commenting on accuracy. Thanks very much for your time and thoughts.

Warm regards, -krista

[Crocoboxer]

I'd still like to see someone post side-by-side images of the Anovos kit and the Celebration display kit and point out the inaccuracies.

[TK4205]

Christa, thank you. I would be happy to clarify.

 

 I do believe the ANOVOS armor is good enough for basic membership. It's more accurate than the FX when it first came out. 

 

Let me compare this with the E-11; Several builders tried vac forming parts to build up an approvable E11. It can be done, but only with lots of bondo and building. What we ended up doing is a mixture of vac formed and resin parts to make it look better but never perfect. Using the argument that "we just cant reproduce injected parts" could be used for everything else that we recreate, which would lower our standards over time.

 

During the interview with ANOVOS, i heard said that they expected to supply a fully approvable kit out of the box, but we simply do not work that way; we approve members and their costumes, not kits. Nor does the 501st endorse or recommend armor to purchase.   

 

It took almost a year for our Cad Bane to get approved. My mask is not officially approved.I tried to get my mask and organic parts approved for the legion so that members would not be denied based on my mask, but it doesn't work that way. Once a member got approved in my sculpt, that's all I needed to know. No one ever told me that it was "close" or that "things needed to be changed". I took a chance, I built it, and it got approved for a member who put a whole lot of work into his kit.

 

ANOVOS wants to guarantee approval of its kits, but that's not how it works.

[camprandall]

ANOVOS wants to guarantee approval of its kits, but that's not how it works.

 

I think there are a lot of good points being made here, but there is a piece missing. I think we need to separate the vendor from the product. There are a lot of arguments being made on both sides that seem to be a bit tied to opinions about the maker, which is clouding the discussion. What I think is that the suit alone - regardless of how ANOVOS or anyone tied to them wants it to be perceived - is pretty darn accurate but also not 100% identical to screen used suits. The edges aren't as sharp for sure, but that's not really in dispute because we're talking about the much more affordable vacu-formed vs injection molded. This is also true of our current clone armor that is a representation of a CGI suit, and many many other costumes that aren't made in exactly the same way as the original. The real issue is that it is a suit that is accurate in appearance, and it is available to us and we've done the work we always to do to build it well and fit it to ourselves. This seems to make it qualify for an initial CRL and approval process, as Wyatt seems to agree with. No one here is talking at all about instant approval for ANOVOS purchases - we all built these things and it took a ton of work - and no one is saying that we can't possibly get more accurate. Leaving confusing and contradictory ANOVOS rep quotes out of the conversation because again, it doesn't matter what how they want the 501st to perceive this - all we're talking about here is a bunch of 501st members who built and fit accurate armor kits that have a very close resemblance to the screen-used suits we've seen. I don't care how it affects ANOVOS at all - I just want the process to be consistent with how we approach approval and from everything that I've seen that's been laid out, we have far better reference than we've had in the past for most of our CRLs and we have better sculpts than we've had in many cases over the years. Since we have that excellent reference material, which is the primary requirement for a CRL (not a release date of the movie), let's get this initial CRL done so that the hundreds of members who have built or will be building these know what the expectations are. Let's then have separate conversations about what methods we could use to refine the accuracy further, which is admittedly very intriguing stuff.

Edited May 21, 2015 by camprandall

[Crocoboxer]

Right on, Clint. The existence of the Anovos suit has absolutely nothing to with whether or not a CRL can be developed. We're talking about reference material for the CRL and the response is a list of inaccuracies with the Anovos suit. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Anovos suit be the base for the CRL, are they? The suits on mannequins at Celebration are confirmed to be screen used. Those are what we use as reference for the CRL.

 

For that matter, Blizzard force should have enough to go on to create a CRL for the First Order Snowtrooper and whoever gets the flametrooper should have enough to go on to start that CRL.

[TK4205]

very well said, Clint. I wish I had the ability to put words together like that to convey what I am thinking. You are right in that we need to separate the issues popping up. You are right in that we have enough reference to get started on a CRL.

 

When I post my opinion here, it is only that, just my opinion. I have no say here more than any other FISD member. Thanks for taking the time to read my opinion.

[stormtrooperguy[501st]]

This is a fascinating evolution to watch... this whole process is so different than any other CRL development I've been part of, just due to the volume of these costumes already out there.

 

I think the big points to get from this is:

 

- we have plenty of screen used reference from celebration to be able to judge reasonably well the accuracy of the costume.

- we have seen the anovos kit, and while we know it's not 100% accurate, it is more than good enough for membership.

- we know that the CRL today is not going to look the same as the crl this time next year, nor should we expect it to.

- we are in the business of welcoming members and approving that which is reasonable, not nitpicking everything to within a millimeter of its life.

 

At the end of the day, I see absolutely no reason that the Alpha 75 kit should not be approved for Legion membership, and I think the CRL should reflect that. In the absence of a CRL, I would approve them as built for Celebration, without hesitation.

 

Another thing to consider is that we spend a lot of time talking about how the Legion does or doesn't do whatever thing. We are the Legion. If we don't think something is working, we can change it. We are not locked into any particular mode of operation. Every new LMO team evolves from the prior team's work, and makes things that much better than before. Maybe someday CRLs will be required for the first approval. Maybe we will pre-approve sculpts, rather than making people finish their work only to be rejected. You never know. To me there is no sense in getting hung up on "this is how it has always been"... we should think about how we want it to be, and see if that makes sense.

 

I think it's safe to say we can stop debating whether or not the CRL will be released before the movie and whether or not the Anovos kit, if properly built, should be acceptable... the answer is yes to both of them. It's now just a matter of filling out the paperwork

[v7sg[TK]]

So, when do we start to submit for approval? ;p

[stormtrooperguy[501st]]

We submit for approval when the CRL is done.

 

If this idea of CRL first then approvals works out well, it is possible it could be a new way forward for us. We'll see how this plays out with the TFA troopers.

Edited May 28, 2015 by stormtrooperguy

[Dday[501st]]

We submit for approval when the CRL is done.

 

If this idea of CRL first then approvals works out well, it is possible it could be a new way forward for us. We'll see how this plays out with the TFA troopers.

 

You  an submit for approval prior to the CRL being out. I believe it's up to the legion membership to decide at this point if it's approvable. Once a CRL is done it can be approved by the garrison level. Correct me if I misunderstand the process.

[stormtrooperguy[501st]]

You  an submit for approval prior to the CRL being out. I believe it's up to the legion membership to decide at this point if it's approvable. Once a CRL is done it can be approved by the garrison level. Correct me if I misunderstand the process.

In general you are correct, but this costume is being treated differently due to the fact that there are so many of them out there already. If it goes well (CRL being required before approval) that could potentially be the way we do it all the time.

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

I started adding some words to the first post. I'll keep adding stuff as I have a moment to work on it. 

 

Feel free to start suggesting your own verbiage for any part. 

 

The goal is make costumes approvable not to capture every single detail of the costume. This is not up for debate. 

 

-Eric

[Locitus[Admin]]

"Forearms shall have have one picatinny rail embedded on the inside of the forearm, roughly covered 1/3rd by a box shape"

"Each forearm box shall have a single black square in the lower inside corner"

"Each forearm shall have two 'clasp greeblies' on the outside facing surface, near the wrist"

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

"picatinny"... What a wonderful word! I am learning everyday...

 

Also Eric, i don't see it mentionned in the first post, but you may need to add a pragraph for the "Tactical Vest" in the optionals with the "Blaster", as we can see regular troopers wearing it.

 

Blaster:

"Must have the correct color scheme with the right parts painted in white, black, and metallic."

[camprandall]

I have a general comment in that the classic TK is a bit more specific about what some of the components and locations are and it might be good to try to be consistent with the language used there. If we look at this as something someone might read without having prior knowledge of the components and areas in a classic TK they may not quite understand.  Here are a few examples where I expanded using similar language to the classic TK CRL. Take it or leave it.

 

Before

Each tear is solid black

 

Proposed

Each tear (area beneath the corners of eye lenses) is solid black

 

Before

A single silver colored aerator shall be present on the left side

 

After

A single Aerator/Hovi mic tip (cylinder on lower right side of the chin) is silver or painted silver.

[Locitus[Admin]]

"picatinny"... What a wonderful word! I am learning everyday...

 

It is the real name of the part they used. It's used for mounting stuff on guns.

 

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