What about a re-cast of a re-cast?

[Elumusic[TK]]

Just thought I would throw that out.  I'm pretty new to this, but I have spent a little over a year making a Storm Trooper helmet mold to use in some artwork and also to make near movie accurate helmets.  I was recently looking for a set of armor for myself and came across a really crappy version on e-bay that had no definition, etc.  It was really crappy.   I thought, it must be a re-cast and then had another thought.  I could make a cast of that cast and then re-work it and make it accurate and sharpen up the lines.  The reason is that every armor maker I have approached has some ridiculous delivery time and I really don't want to wait around for the end of the year to get my hands on some decent stuff, so I either need to start with pepikura and fix it or come up with another plan.

 

So what are everyone's thoughts?  Recast of a recast...cool or not?

[gazmosis[501st]]

1st generation recast or 17th generation recast.....if it's not done with permission is bad. Period

[mikedwelle94[TK]]

 really don't want to wait around for the end of the year to get my hands on some decent stuff

 

I promise waiting will be worth it. It's actually a pretty big part of this hobby.

Your money is better spent that way, anyway.

Edited May 7, 2014 by SolidScrafty

[Locitus[Admin]]

As usual you have to choose between speedy delivery, accuracy and low cost. But you may only choose two.

[Sonnenschein]

A recast of a recast is still a recast.

[Dday[501st]]

Just thought I would throw that out.  I'm pretty new to this, but I have spent a little over a year making a Storm Trooper helmet mold to use in some artwork and also to make near movie accurate helmets.  I was recently looking for a set of armor for myself and came across a really crappy version on e-bay that had no definition, etc.  It was really crappy.   I thought, it must be a re-cast and then had another thought.  I could make a cast of that cast and then re-work it and make it accurate and sharpen up the lines.  The reason is that every armor maker I have approached has some ridiculous delivery time and I really don't want to wait around for the end of the year to get my hands on some decent stuff, so I either need to start with pepikura and fix it or come up with another plan.

 

So what are everyone's thoughts?  Recast of a recast...cool or not?

 

As everyone above has said, it's the general consensus.

 

Most helmet kits you can get shipped out within a few weeks, it's the full armor kits that take forever.

 

If you put it into the perspective of you as an artist, it's like someone copying your music, then someone copying them and rebranding it as their own. It's still yours, but now someone down the line is taking credit for it. No matter how many people down the line copied it, it was still yours to start with.

 

If you plan on offering helmets for sale, best to do what you have done so far. You are pretty close to a finished product from what I have seen.

[Elumusic[TK]]

Agreed guys, but think about getting permission for a re-cast.  With whom do you discuss permissions?  A re-caster doesn't usually advertise who the original artist was so how do you get the permission??  I agree with not recasting any product without the permission of the original artist because it's stealing.    

 

So...what I am saying here is that re-casters who do a crappy job have lost every bit of detail.  There is nothing left to work with except the basic shape of the mold.  It would be a complete re-design.  It's not stealing, it's not taking credit for someone else's work and if a true artist was to start with a recast of a recast and build it from the basics to full glory it is now their work.  There's actually a legal name for it and it's called "Fair Use".  And if it's legal, then why would anyone even think that someone should not get credit for returning something to full glory or making an original out of a re-used piece of garbage.

[Locitus[Admin]]

If you are going to redo something to the point of a new original, don't use a crappy FX like those often sold on ebay. Because those are so way off that you are literally better off starting from scratch.

[Elumusic[TK]]

As everyone above has said, it's the general consensus.

 

Most helmet kits you can get shipped out within a few weeks, it's the full armor kits that take forever.

 

If you put it into the perspective of you as an artist, it's like someone copying your music, then someone copying them and rebranding it as their own. It's still yours, but now someone down the line is taking credit for it. No matter how many people down the line copied it, it was still yours to start with.

 

If you plan on offering helmets for sale, best to do what you have done so far. You are pretty close to a finished product from what I have seen.

Yes Derrek this is true, but I have to say I get stolen from every day musically.  Illegal downloads, etc.  But nobody can take my music and make it theirs because of the copyrights that were provided to me by the law.  Storm Trooper armor remakes are not protected unless you are licensed by Disney to produce it.  It's all black market.  But I am authorized as is everyone else, under the Fair Use laws to make original artwork even if it's using a recognized trademark so long as I make it original enough that it can be considered art and not a copyright or trademark violation.  Musically people who create parodies from well known works are also protected.   

[Elumusic[TK]]

If you are going to redo something to the point of a new original, don't use a crappy FX like those often sold on ebay. Because those are so way off that you are literally better off starting from scratch.

Exactly my point.  They are so way off that it would be better to start from scratch.  But I would have the basic parts and pieces that could be modified to be correct.  Using a pepikura model that someone else created is also re-casting someone else's work but as it is being sculpted it is being modified.  I did this with the helmet mold I am finishing up.  But it's the same thing right?

[Locitus[Admin]]

No it's not. The pepakura model you used was intended to be used and shared that way. Recasting is not.

[jannick]

I say start from scratch. Your helmet mold is starting to look incredible! It would be awesome to see you do a perpekura armor.

But I guess. that's easy for me to say, since I'm not putting the hours into it...

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

nobody can get permission.  in my opinion the property belong to brian muir, Liz moore and lucasfilm.

personally I believe that the idea of " permission" is a little out of whack around the star wars hobby.

 

last time I looked there are 3 companies who have paid the license fees to make products currently.

 

rubies.= we hate this armor generally.

EFX collectables.  cast form original.

Anovos. planned cast from original... " can't wait to see this!"

 

 

no other person or company has rights from lucasfilm to make and sell armor or costume props.

   not even our favorite RS Props has PERMISSION.

 

if we were talking about royalty free that would be a different story... but our entire hobby here is

doing this without lucas permission.  george is just being nice to us... and letting us play around with his toys.

 

 remember this is all george lucas personal property.

 

TE is a recast.

 

steps down off soapbox.

Edited May 7, 2014 by TK Bondservnt 2392

[Elumusic[TK]]

You guys are awesome...I appreciate the input.  I will be looking at some armor molds very soon.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

Some things are now "open source". Original TE you can recast, and CAP put his v1 stuff out there as "anyone can recast it". Why not start with those?

 

I think there are a few others that are considered "public domain" as far as this forum / the Legion is concerned.

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

Some things are now "open source". Original TE you can recast, and CAP put his v1 stuff out there as "anyone can recast it". Why not start with those?

 

I think there are a few others that are considered "public domain" as far as this forum / the Legion is concerned.

 

paul, when I look at the whole "permission" issue.. I see two levels of thought here... the first level of thought is looking at the issue in the wrong perspective where

some older members are given status because of their longevity in the hobby, so people like TE are considered by you "open source".  and cap is also considered in this same vein as "open source"... this forum, and the legion does not have the permission to give advice to members, or even non members any 'rights' to recast the intellectual property owned by LFL or disney... where do we get the idea that we have permission to grant?

 

the second level of thought was handled correctly and legally by companies like master replicas, hasbro, windlass studios, and countless other companies who purchase the actual legal rights to produce products.  my point here, is that not even the 501st legion, or the FISD has the right to suggest to anyone that making and selling products in the star wars universe, with the intent for non profit, or profit.

 

how do we get the idea in this hobby that we have any permissions to grant?

 

just because TE or CAP products might be being produced, does not mean they have the rights to say anything about anything.

 

I posted a thread on the legion boards about my personal agreement with you on this topic... I would like to see LFL and disney offer a pathway for existing members of the 501st legion, or longtime supporters of the legion be given a way to send money for products "POST SALE" so that people like TM, ATA, AP, far away creations, and many other legion members to simply make our products, and send in extra profits to LFL/DISNEY.

 

if we could open up the dialog process I'm sure that people like me, or others who make for example leatherwork, or metalwork, or models, or costume parts could apply for what I called an "open source" licensing program where we mark up our products above cost and send the funds into the property holding company.

 

this would allow the simple and small scale hobby oriented business minded producer to not have to come up with milliions of dollars in advance money.

 

if this program could be negotiated, people who have long time supported legion members, or even legion members who have been providing products

could be listed, approved and signed up for a massive legion push to get our hobby out into the open, allow for sales, and profits sent to the property owner.

 

as it stands now I don't want to see pepakura armor, or people simply sculpting helmets and armor molds out of the blue,

some people actually think they can make movie accurate stuff here... and usually that's just not the case.

 

even TM, who made his own sculpts... had to use TE, GINO, and AP and other sources as a visual basis for his sculpts... so even that was

done in the process of using recast, or non approved sources of materials to get even close to accurate.

 

why do we, in this hobby feel like anyone has the right to give permission?

 

so on one hand I think we could open up the hobby in a massive way, but on the other I don't think that just because someone makes a sculpt of yoda...

he has the rights to sell copies of it.  sure... he can pop it on the shelf in his office... but make copies and sell em?

 

((and believe me... I've seen some amazing yoda sculpts out there on the RPF!!!))

Edited May 8, 2014 by TK Bondservnt 2392

[Daetrin[Admin]]

True Vern, this is my personal opinion and how I operated as DL. TE (Matt Gauthier) lied, cheated, and stole money from so many people it's not even funny. So, why should I respect and protect the work of someone who is like this? He sold his molds several times over, then recasted himself, then sold those molds again. To me he is not part of any community of mine. He is banned for life on this and every other 501st forum, not to mention non-501st forums.

 

For CAP, he recasted TE then said publicly he did not care if anyone recast what he did. So, who is to complain?

[Dday[501st]]

You guys are awesome...I appreciate the input. I will be looking at some armor molds very soon.

 

Let's look at it like this, there is no legality given here on the fisd. We are just a bunch of fans who have come together in a hobby. Nothing anyone says here will stop you from casting, recasting, making, breaking or getting married to equipment. If you use someone's helmet to copy, then are using it to modify and create some sort of art, I'm sure no one will care.

 

It's just that if you want to be a part of the community here and sell storm trooper armor parts, you have to show your work, that it is yours originally.

 

Nothing is stopping anyone from buying a suit of armor 1st or even second hand, recasting it then selling it all day on eBay, other forums and so on.

 

The prop community is pretty small, and if you get a name as a recaster selling stuff, most places will not allow you to sell there. But, that doesn't stop you from selling on eBay and locally and your own website and so on.

 

Really, it's down to if you want to make and sell armor and want to be a part of the various prop communities, the make it your self, show the work you've done to make the molds and you'll be welcomed. Recast and sell on eBay, like the 100 other people doing the same.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited May 9, 2014 by Dday

[Locitus[Admin]]

Not to mention that people known to recast are often denied buying other people's stuff regardless of their future intentions. Once burned the community is twice shy.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Elumusic[TK]]

I hear you guys.  And I want to remind everyone that I created my helmet mold from scratch.  And it's pretty darn accurate but it is not exactly screen accurate because I left off the imperfections of the originals.  It's more about the nuance of the costume as a whole.  Bottom line is I have enough drive, knowledge and ambition to create anything I want without the need to steal.  And the only reason I have posted my thoughts and shared my sculpt is because of my belief in what the 501st does for charity and other things.  But the issue with any of this, regardless if you make leather components, guns, molds, etc., is that it's a hobby and depending on the drive and ambition of those involved can make money or can be just for pleasure.  To nail someone as being dishonest because they have stolen their product and is re-selling something they didn't create is one thing that I agree with, but to say to anyone that they shouldn't create something with the intent to sell it is ridiculous when everyone on this site has bought, sold or created unregistered costumes, weapons and accessories.  Without everyone doing what they do, the 501st would simply not exist.  The Charity would not exist and Disney/George Lucas Films would not have access to their supporting fans.  And depending on what place in the world you live, it may not have any legal strings attached.

 

I do want approval from the members of the 501st and the Star Wars fans and I do not want to step on toes, but regardless, I have a need to create what's in my head and put it on display and enjoy what I do.  My Storm Trooper build is only a fraction of what is in my head.  I as many others, have created a pepikura mold because of my love for Star Wars and a childhood dream to have one of my own because I grew up doing without.  Yes, I spent more on making the mold than I would have simply buying a helmet and recasting it, but I had a great time doing it.  It gave me a creative outlet, pleasure and it gave me a medium for the artwork I intend to do with it.  Yes, I am going to sell my artwork to as many people will buy it and probably donate some of my income to charity because that's what we do and it will not be illegal because of what I plan to do with it.  Everything I do will fall under the fair use laws.  So regardless if I re-vamp a recast of a recast or create my own armor molds from scratch, my drive an ambition is purely based on acquiring a basis for my art. 

 

So now that I understand what some members approve of or disapprove of, it gives me a starting point and that's what I wanted to know.  I appreciate everyone's input on the subject.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Elumusic

[Dday[501st]]

I am not sure what you mean about people not wanting you to make armor to sell, maybe I missed something. If you make your own sculpts and molds in the same way you did the helmet, you selling armor is a welcome addition to the community. The community only gets better because of new people adding new talent.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[walt[501st]]

Yep..start from nothing...enter the void look and see blackness till light shows you.....armor....white armor

[walt[501st]]

Lol..what?!

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

LoL @Walt.

 

However, I'd personally be excited by a new, approved armor maker being available to the community. It would be another option, which would/could theoretically reduce wait times a bit for people.

 

I believe that based on what we've seen of your helmet sculpt, you could become that new armorer, and there'd be no need or reason to recast anything.

[walt[501st]]

Fine!..i will start.BUT did you know it takes about 1 year after to be put on THE LIST