Dizzy presents: my thoughts on recasting

[DizzyStormtrooper[501st]]

TL;DR version = i dont care where the items come from as long as its made with quality materials, is priced fairly, and the seller has excellent customer service.

 

 

 

long version, continue on.

 

when recasting is bad:

-a seller is secretive/dishonest of a products origins. NE armor is the perfect example of this. it was mentioned many times things like sculpted and new and other juicy words sounding like its an original work, but NE shouldve just been honest and all like "ye dawg i totes used RS as a base BUT heres all the mad work i did that makes dis diff'rnt, ya herd?" i literally had to see the comparison pictures to believe it myself. the guy's a hell of a sculptor and vacformer. the GOOD thing about this however is that its still screen lineage AND modified to be even more detailed than the first copy was. but still, shouldve just been up front.

 

-sellers overprice the product. theres no way a helmet cost $600 in resin. most sellers i know that cast helmets (their own work) charge $70-120 or so plus shipping. which is understandable considering resin is f*****g expensive. what is it again, like 80 a gallon? and considering you might get 2-3 helmets out of that if youre lucky, you still have to keep buying resin and molding materials

 

now when it comes to vacformed armor, makerofthings used cheap styrene. it [assumingly] mustve been like those cheep 70's halloween masks with the circle eye-holes kind of plastic that would snap in half if you looked at it the wrong way. $200 for that kit shipped sounds reasonable, but dont charge an extra hundy citing "labor" and charge for shipping on top of that. (NE on the other hand IS quality abs, so dont go break out in hives when the word recast comes up in conversation. there ARE good stuffs out there, we only say "stay away from ebay" because of cheaply made stuff and fiberglass FX recasts. we DONT need any more FX related stuff here. and for those grandfathered peeps, at least be a man and trim the bottom of your chest so its a little more accurate. fiberglass sucks, and so does that guy in Garland, TX that gets his stuff from taiwan)

 

-the seller is shady as f**k. three words. cushmann custom creations. also, anybody thats taken YEARS to fulfill an order. though i hear Mr. Laws finally got around to satisfying one guy that waited 2 years for an armor kit. great products, but an iffy reputation. not saying he's a recaster, hes a very respectable guy, but bro do you even customer service? i understand waiting lists, but NO maker should take money unless products are IN HAND/ready to ship. i never do. even stuff i sell on ebay dont even get listed unless its already boxed up.

 

one more thing, return policies. buyers and sellers are both responsible for clearly defining returns/exchange policies.

 

when recasting is good:

-necessity. i openly admit that i recast ATA mic tips. i had one in hand, needed a second for a customer that had only one (he found the other later but it was lost during shipping). so i cast another plus a few more pairs for my own use (and to use up the rest of my resin). but i DONT sell them claiming to be my own or to make profit. its a cheap replacement part, sure it isnt the best in detail to the original one as ive never molded anything before in my life, but im honest about it. sometimes one might break off accidently during a troop, i gladly ship out to members in need for merely the cost of material and shipping.

 

-an item is no longer produced / continental limitations. iirc lonewolf doesnt make scout helmets anymore. those are the best damn TB buckets out there. he's also in ireland i think, and i try to deal strictly in the US, i'd totes make some copies out of respect for the maker, but i wouldnt claim it as my own like oh... newimage58, nexusenterprises.. nor would i do it to make profit. if'n yer gonna recast, just be honest about it, even if that means losing customers.

 

 

let me be clear, i want people to get into the legion, not feel bad for themselves because they found out they bought a recast product. there are people out there with hearts in the right place, thou shall not scold them and tell them to "RUN AWAAAAAY" from a certain make or ebay listing. (of course DO feel free if its something ridiculous as a rubies or other obvious ripoff, yknow, for the sake of the recruits that dont have the experienced eyes yet)

[mikedwelle94[TK]]

Although I fully understand your point, I'm not sure if I can completely agree with something like this. 

Say I made something really cool, just for an example. Some dude comes along and buys it, and starts churning out casts of my product. This guy also happens to have great people skills and awesome customer service. That's great for the customer, and gives them another option... but don't I still get burned in the end? Just doesn't sound fair to me.

 

We can't force anyone to buy a certain thing, and we certainly shouldn't shame them for their decision (that's common courtesy). The best we can do is educate, and help them make the best of any situation (good or bad) whenever possible.

 

I usually don't get involved in these kinds of topics, but I couldn't keep myself from submitting my $0.02. This should make for an interesting discussion. Followed.

[Locitus[Admin]]

It is a tricky word, and everyone has different opinions on it. I am heavily against it in more or less every regard. I am however understanding of it in some situations. But I still don't agree with it. As in the case of the mic tip. Tough luck. Better order a new pair from someone that sculpted their own, like sskunky or Keith and replace  both of them at the same time. Until then, no trooping, or use a different helmet/costume/borrow something.

 

Speaking of continental limitations.. If I were to recast hyperfirms to offer to all the europeans out there, because sci-fire refuses to ship outside the US, would you not think that was wrong?

[Darth Voorhees[501st]]

I agree with you 100% on this Mathais, and thats a good example.

 

Although i get Dizzy's point..i feel recasting in any sense is wrong. It always ends up hurting the original maker/creator one way or another.

[Dday[501st]]

It is a tricky word, and everyone has different opinions on it. I am heavily against it in more or less every regard. I am however understanding of it in some situations. But I still don't agree with it. As in the case of the mic tip. Tough luck. Better order a new pair from someone that sculpted their own, like sskunky or Keith and replace  both of them at the same time. Until then, no trooping, or use a different helmet/costume/borrow something.

 

Speaking of continental limitations.. If I were to recast hyperfirms to offer to all the europeans out there, because sci-fire refuses to ship outside the US, would you not think that was wrong?

 

Unless you were casting with the permission of scifire to sell over here, or bought directly from him, imported them and then resold. But again, this isn't really recasting . Even though casting them over here, with permission or not, qualified as recasting... but if you do it with his permission, it's ok recasting. Regardless, he probably won't give permission anyways, since his blasters have a secret sauce I guess.

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

recasting artwork from any one is wrong.  casting from original parts??  priceless.

 

to copy ATA tips is wrong.

 

to copy an original tip.  honorable.

 

this is exactly why making stolen copy is called RE

 

instead of the first generation of a part we have a stolen second gen part.

 

and don't tell me about lost parts found again as a basis for the excuse of re-casting. you don't represent the legion properly by openly admitting that you are

guilty of a crime.  in this world there are 3 kinds of artists. 

 

1 Original artist.

2 Copy.

3 Stolen art.

[Dday[501st]]

I'm of the mind that copying from the first part w/o the express permission of the originator is wrong.

 

Castings taken from the original trooper armor is wrong unless the caster got permission from the maker of the original pieces.

 

So... 

 

 

To copy an original part is wrong

 

to copy a copy of a part is wrong

 

to make your own in the same way the original was made with the same parts is ok

 

To buy a new part is ok

 

 

 

 

[Dday[501st]]

1 Original artist.

2 Stolen Art

3 Stolen Art

[Striker]

Well since this is a discussion I figured I should see what others felt about this. We all know casting originals are best and give our product the best details rather than 2nd generation cast anyways. With that being said most sterling cast from original molds like myself and Lou do have the 2nd gereration in them due to the work needed to fit the pipe. Even my Hasbro's seen here http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/25591-new-hasbro-kit-molds-made/ are between a 2nd and 3rd due to the fact I have to mod some parts of the sterling to fit the Hasbro. The scope piece and stock fork were scracth built specifically for the Hasbro so they are definitely first generation. Some have PMed me about wanting aquire my scopes then ask where did I get them....I direct them here  http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/26652-new-scope-molds/

 

Now my question is what about my DL-44s? I dont want to buy a real mauser (spend over $2000) just to ruin it with mold material so I use a Denix. Most mausers out there are cast from a Denix and always felt this was a fine line to the point I even contacted them lol. They only responded with we cant sell to you because they already had their US whole-sellers and never mentioned frowning upon people like me using them in resin. Here is the DL-44 I am currently building http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/topic/26772-solo-esb-dl-44/

 

Now the DL-44 is the ONLY blaster i use cast from a maker like Denix and have sourced other original blaster parts that I am in the process of producing.

 

I actually own Denix I chopped for the smaller barrel blaster and a full size as the GK is my next blaster I am building. I actually have the parts curing as I type lol (except the full body)

 

Now on to some cool show pics.....take a look at how huge this spear gun is for the cloud city blaster

The cloud city blaster is made from the Nemrod Galeon 1 spear gun...I have been looking for this and the Skiff gaurd balster for years and I now have them both. The spear gun was full size and was a pain to cut and disassemble to its current state. I have scaled it and have all the parts drawn out and will be making them to start casting soon. The skiff gaurds isan old Umarex /2nd hand Panther RO72 target pistol. Both of Nemrod and Umarex have multiple version but these are the correct ones

 

 

My scratch built ElectroBinos masters, most of them are Frankensteined parts I made to my own liking....lol look at that Laundry cap

 

 

Now my score, PRE revelle Renwal Visible V8....has all the parts needed  for what I do

 

 

 

[Nicky]

I agree with Mathias. If we tolerate recasts even when the original source is inaccessible, in the long run the creativity loses. Delays and missed troops can be the consequence, but that's okay as it encourages you to get a second costume or to be careful with your mic tips. 

 

If things are created from scratch out of necessity instead of sheer enthusiasm, then more things are created. Inconvenience is good for progress. Convenience is good for laziness. 

Now when we're talking about getting old Volvo dashboards to make a Solo in carbonite, or a saucer-shaped spaceship made out of 8 lambda class shuttle wings, then of course, recast the one that you have. But parts for a costume that has plenty of resources? No.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Nicky

[Dreamdasher]

It's really funny how this topic is so hotly debated, but it's completely understandable just why it's such a hot topic.

 

So, recasting is bad, right? I'll give my personal opinions at the end of this post, but I want to try and view it objectively since I just got into the community.

 

The original product is the result of research, looking at screen caps or action figures, and then doing everything you can to replicate what you see. So, in essence, even the original is a copy of someone else's creative work. However, it can be argued that the original creator of the replica put in the most actual, physical work and research.

 

A recast is then someone taking a copy of a replica and making a copy of that. It cannot really be argued that the recast wasn't easier to make. Copies are easy to create, that's why people make them. However, the debate starts around whether or not making that copy-of-a-copy was a bad thing, and whether or not selling it is bad, or wearing it is bad but not as bad.

 

Let's take something basic as an example: An E-11 blaster.

 

An "original replica" would be you buying a Sterling or a Sterling replica, attaching the T-tracks, the counter, the scope, the rail, and then modifying the magazine and other components yourself. You now have an "original replica" of the E-11 used in the movies. That's an important distinction. Yours is a replica, not the original. Unless your casts come from an original movie prop, of course. Even then, Sterling is responsible for the majority of what you have. They designed the SMG back in the 1940s, and all of the accessories you attached to it are just you copying what you've seen on screen. Someone else in the Lucasfilm props deparment did all of the creative work back in the 70s, so all of the "work" you put into it (assuming you didn't just follow a guide on this site) was just you trying to figure out how to accurately copy someone else's work. If you followed a guide, then you did even less work, since someone else did all of the research and you're just following step-by-step instructions on how to create your own replica.

 

So you decide you want to sell castings of your E-11. You take the completed rifle, cast it in silicone, and then make kits to sell online. What you're distributing now are essentially copies of a copy of someone else's creative work, and you're charging for the labor you invested in creating the kits.

 

Someone buys your kit, and then makes castings of your castings, which are recastings, and sells those online. Their recasts are now copies of copies of copies, and their quality is likely inferior to the original, and inferior to your original castings as well.

 

So, where do I stand on recasting? Here's how I feel about it:

 

If you went through the trouble of creating an original replica from your own measurements and attempted to replicate the original movie prop, that's cool. If you then decided to make cast copies of that work so that others can have what you have, that's fine too. The money you charge isn't payment for the prop, it's payment for the time and effort you put into creating cast copies of the original replica you created. It makes sense, really. Some people want to wear Stormtrooper armor that's as close to authentic as possible, but not everyone has access to the facilities needed to craft their own from scratch.

 

I can't generate much outrage if someone takes your copy, makes their own copy, and then sells it at a cheaper price, especially if they're upfront about them being recastings. It's going to be inferior quality, after all. I have absolutely no problem with people warning others about recasters. In fact, I encourage it! Given the sensitive and serious nature that many of us have about authenticity, it's very important that we spread the word about inferior products, and ensure that troopers only buy their supplies from people that provide high quality replicas.

 

However, I draw the line at comparing these people to thieves, or acting as if they have no moral fiber. You made a replica, and then made a copy of that replica, which they bought, made copies of, and then distributed. To me, this is akin to writing a piece of software that intentionally duplicates an official piece of software as closely as possible, distributing copies of that software, and then complaining when someone else downloads your copy and starts distributing it, too. You basically copied someone else's ideas and designs wholesale.

 

Of course, if they're lying and claiming that their recasts are original castings, that is a serious issue, because that's fraud, but if someone's admitting to selling recasts, then they're not doing anything wrong in my opinion since they're being up front about it.

 

Is it a lazier way of doing things? Sure, but morally and ethically, they're not really doing anything you didn't do. They're taking someone else's work, making copies, and then charging for the labor they invested in creating the copies, which is basically exactly what the original caster did.

 

I would never buy anything from a recaster myself, but that's not because I see them as thieves, it's because I see them as lazy, and I don't support laziness.