Hero Frown and Bicep Question [AP]

[usaeatt2]

Hi all,

 

I started building and taking pictures for a possible future AP build thread.

I woud really like to make Hero armor, but my AP kit doesn't offer that helmet option, so...

 

Straight out of the box, I thought I'd attempt to modify the faceplate to give it a Hero frown.  I don't know if this is "frowned" upon, but I was told AP armor could be made into Hero as long as it meets the visual requirements.  I've built half a dozen RC airplanes, so I'm pretty comfortable with a hobby iron, or in my case a "Monokote Sealing Iron" (it's used to heat and shrink the plastic film covering on RC airplanes).  If I don't succeed, then I will change the remainder of the build to Stunt.  Better to know what I'm building from the start.  While I was inside the faceplate with the hobby iron, I straightened out some of the 'lip ripples' caused by the teeth impressions.  I don't want it to be perfect (retain some 'wonkiness'), but I did want to provide a little more definition by straightening the edge of the lip.  Very subtle, but I think it makes a difference.

 

BEFORE:

 

AFTER:

 

 

 

 

BICEPS:

Next, it seems like I've heard it's a good idea to build the biceps first.  Not sure why - maybe because they're small and help you get a feel for the process before moving on to larger parts.  Anyway, I researched lots of builds and looked at lots of pictures.  From what I can tell, each type of armor has a SLIGHTY different shape bicep.  Some line up well, others do not.  Since I don't want to buy replacement parts, I figured it would be a good idea to check everything multiple times before cutting.  I noticed with my AP biceps, if I cut on the pre-marked 'lines', I'll end up with some of the aforementioned 'mis-alignment'.  I cut wide and left extra material in the misalignment areas.  I thought maybe I could 'reform' the edges with the hobby iron to 'cheat' them back into alignment.

 

 

I'm looking for opinions on whether this matters or not (I realize these particular edges will be mostly hidden by the shoulder bells, so while not a big deal, probably one of the better places to experiment).

 

Will the proposed modification detract from what's expected of AP armor?

Or will the modification improve the armor with my own personal 'fit and finish'?

What do you think?

 

Thanks in advance for the collective wisdom of the FISD!!!

Aaron

 

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

The hero frown requires more than just doing what you've done to the 4th tooth, but if I were the DO I'd pass you in an instant.

 

the biceps are 'mis-aligned on the originals, and if you look at the LFL photos that's your best guide.

 

Personally I would not add a return where there is not one? but to each his own!

 

you've done a fine job on the helmet.. but there are a few more differences to a hero lid, like the point at the center of the cap n back.

 

so  I say yes on the lid, but no on the bicep!

 

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2014 by TK Bondservnt 2392

[usaeatt2]

Thanks, Vern.  That's the kind of feedback I was looking for.

 

Can you define or direct me to a picture of the "point at the center of the cap n back"?

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

you can find that in photos of the EFX hero lid

 

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Edited January 3, 2022 by gmrhodes13
link not working removed

[gazmosis[501st]]

You got some mad talent with that iron, Aaron!!!  You are off to a wonderful start.

[usaeatt2]

Thanks, Steve.  It's more patience than talent, but thanks!  I'll take it!

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

photo updated.

 

I'd say your teeth cut marks are a little too shallow... look at the depth of each tooth....

the original helmet has a lot less material left on each...

compared to your ref marks..

 

keep up the good work!

 

did you use a press from the outside while using the iron?

Edited March 27, 2014 by TK Bondservnt 2392

[usaeatt2]

No press on the outside with the iron.  Essentially, I didn't want anything touching the outside.  I heat the ABS until it starts to "move", work it a little beyond where I want it, then quickly remove the heat and blow on it so it cools and stops moving.

 

Teeth marks are cut "barriers".  Think - DO NOT cut past these lines.  I'll finesse the teeth the rest of the way open using a needle file (a lot more control!).

 

And after searching and reading about EFX for an hour or two, I think I finally understand your comment about the "point" on the center of the cap and back.

 

 

I'll really have to think about how to approach forming a point...at least long enough to build up the courage to try it.  That's a HUGE area of ABS to move.  I would only try that with a large form or buck to press from the inside.  Potentially worth it though, because the sides of the AP cap and back need more curvature to meet up with the faceplate cheeks.  One side of my cap and back has very little curvature and does not match up to the cheek very well.  Just in case, how much is a replacement cap and back?  Risky, but potentially worth the reward...

[Trooperman]

Aaron, great job on the frown  , i wouldnt even try heating up the back plastic , just position the rubber trim as the photo shows ( didnt know having this point was a hero requirement) also the ears are different on the hero lid and the fact they only used 2 screws on the hero ears rather than 3 which was used on the stunt. Great start to your build

[Cantina Security[501st]]

Wow nice work with the iron for sure...

 

TM does have a killer Hero Kit.

 

I like your approach and determination.

 

I would imagine the Cap back wouldn't be too expensive, go for it...

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

these are all valid points.  very well documented there germain!

 

the cheek tubes on the original helmets are that way... it's just another sign that the AP helmet comes from an original source!

the fitting on the ears, can be done by properly trimming the ears so that they fit correctly.

the shape will change under the pressure from the screws... so just setting the ears on and looking

is not the same as screwing them down.

 

do not fit the ears and test the fitting without putting the helmet together exactly on the marked holes.

if you change the shape of the cheeks you're going to fail!

 

the cap N back only needs to be pointed on the lower edge, the upper center does not really need a point.

 

the ears need a complete resculpt. and need to be re-formed.

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

Truly an artist with the iron, Aaron!

 

Great start!!

[bjsavage7[TK]]

Very nice work! This definitely motivates me to finish my Hero build now. lol. 

[usaeatt2]

Honestly, I got COMPLETELY DEMOTIVATED by the whole "point on the cap back" thing...  For what it's worth, too much ABS to move without a form, and too much work to make a form for such a small detail.  At one point, after researching screen shots for an hour or two, I was ready to GIVE UP and just make a Stunt.  But that means I would have to use the iron to add the 4th tooth back into the frown on both sides...AND I HATE REWORK.  To get the cap back "point", it just seemed to make more sense to BUY a hero helmet - my free time is RARE and worth far more than the cost of a different helmet.  So I looked at a TM hero helmet...and didn't really see much of a point there...WTF?  I experienced MASSIVE frustration over a very trivial difference and then I found out the TM hero helmet doesn't have it either.  Moving on.  Almost over it.

 

I looked at some hero EIB applications and found those didn't really have a cap back "point" either.  Does RS make a hero helmet?  Does it have the cap back point?  I know Vern's position, but what do the rest of you think?  Is it worth it?

 

Anyway, I got home from work last night and felt like doing some work, but I'm still MIFFED about the helmet thing.  Moving on to the ears...

 

I have a pair of ATA hero ears and the original AP ears that came with my armor.  Three bumps on ATA, four bumps on AP.  There's also a significant size difference and the color is slightly off.  The AP ears are larger and pure white.  The ATA ears are smaller and kind of an off-white.  You can also see I'm going to have some slight forming work to do where the back meets the cheek tube - mine don't have very much curve and the fit with the cheek tube on the faceplate is bad.  Granted, this area will be covered by the ear, but I'd like it to fit better.

 

What I'd REALLY like are AP ears with three bumps, so that's what I decided to do.

 

First step was to flatten the 4 bumps on the AP ear.  I wanted an even surface to work with.  I tried the hobby iron, but couldn't get enough heat into the whole area to get rid of the bumps.  I decided to switch to a heat gun, but didn't want to warp the entire ear.  I made some "heat shields" from a roll of cork gasket material.  This allowed me to focus the heat from the heat gun without melting the whole ear.  That worked pretty well and I managed to flatten the AP ear bumps to my satisfaction.

 

 

 

 

Now I need a 3 bump form.  I considered different materials and ultimately ended up deciding to use an oven-bake clay because I need something much hard enough to push against.  I bought some white Primo! polymer clay at a Michael's craft store.  I was concerned about possible color transfer onto the ABS, so white seemed like a good choice.  I've never used polymer clay, but I've always been curious.  I watched a few Youtube videos and conditioned my clay as suggested.

 

I've convinced myself that what I'm about to do doesn't count as "recasting" - it's really more like "reshaping".  I'm only using the ATA bumps to get the correct spacing.  I think I'll probably need to build up the form because I won't be able to get enough heat into the ABS for a really good transfer.  My form will need to be a little "taller" to achieve the same shape while using less heat.  Hope that makes sense.  With less heat in the ABS, the form will need to "push harder" to get the same shape.  I pressed the clay into the ATA ear to get the 3 bump spacing.  The clay deformed every time I removed it, so I couldn't get a really good impression.  I tried wax and mold release on the ear, but the clay is really sticky.  I made the best impression I could, then started sculpting to refine and clean up the shape.  I made an inside and outside mold so I would be able to sandwich the ABS between them.

 

 

 

Molds are sculpted, so now they go into to the oven to harden.  The package says 275 degF for 30 min for each 1/4" of thickness.  The molds are 1" thick, so I'll be baking for 2 hours.  Then I'll try them out...

 

Empire Bake Sale?

[Locitus[Admin]]

I looked at some hero EIB applications and found those didn't really have a cap back "point" either.  Does RS make a hero helmet?  Does it have the cap back point?  I know Vern's position, but what do the rest of you think?  Is it worth it?

I think you should do the best you can and be happy with it. No need to go all out on your first try. That usually only makes people try too hard, get upset and quit. Instead you should ease in and gradually improve. No one is an expert at once.

 

Btw, no RS does not make a hero helmet. But TM does.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

That pointy cap n' back might just be because the s-trim isn't well in place, or because of the neck opening trimming. If the neck opening were trimmed more rounded i'm pretty sure you wouldn't have that impression of pointiness.

 

In fact, looking closely at the picture it seems the area where the lines meet (giving the pointy look) is localized at the s-trim junction and that there's a gap between the two lips. That would explain why it gives that pointy illusion. To me it seems more like an "assembly" thing.

 

So don't get demotivated!

 

Edited March 29, 2014 by The5thHorseman

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

this is one of the best builds I've seen yet!

 

the rear point could be done very easy with just gentle heat and a simple pull with a stick.

after looking at the ear mod situation I can see that all those RC models really helped a lot

to prepare you for the entire build!

 

have fun!!

 

you're doing the best work in the legion at this point!

[usaeatt2]

On 3/30/2014 at 3:42 AM, Locitus said:

_{I think you should do the best you can and be happy with it. No need to go all out on your first try. That usually only makes people try too hard, get upset and quit. Instead you should ease in and gradually improve. No one is an expert at once.}

 

Btw, no RS does not make a hero helmet. But TM does.

 

_{Thanks, Mathias.  You're absolutely right.  I just want to be sure I don't invest a mountain of time into something that doesn't meet the standard from the beginning.}

 

 

On 3/30/2014 at 3:53 AM, The5thHorseman said:

_{That pointy cap n' back might just be because the s-trim isn't well in place, or because of the neck opening trimming. If the neck opening were trimmed more rounded i'm pretty sure you wouldn't have that impression of pointiness.}

 

_{In fact, looking closely at the picture it seems the area where the lines meet (giving the pointy look) is localized at the s-trim junction and that there's a gap between the two lips. That would explain why it gives that pointy illusion. To me it seems more like an "assembly" thing.}

 

_{So don't get demotivated!}

 

 

There's definitely a shape difference beyond just the neck trim positioning, but it does line up perfectly with the S-trim joint.  I never noticed it until Vern "pointed" it out.  I suppose you notice these things when you're a veteran and you see different helmets frequently.  Here's a screen shot showing the pointy shape...

[usaeatt2]

this is one of the best builds I've seen yet!

 

the rear point could be done very easy with just gentle heat and a simple pull with a stick.

after looking at the ear mod situation I can see that all those RC models really helped a lot

to prepare you for the entire build!

 

have fun!!

 

you're doing the best work in the legion at this point!

 

Thanks, Vern.  I appreciate your vote of confidence, but I seriously doubt I'm anywhere near the best work in the legion.  I'm just screwing around trying to figure out how to do things to end up with a passable result.  I AM HAVING FUN though!

[Locitus[Admin]]

Are you sure guys you're not spending a lot of time making general assumptions about about something that might be specific to a single helmet? It's an interesting discussion of course, but lets not get too carried away.

 

 

I can't see the same point here, on this hero helmet from the C4 exhibit.

[The5thHorseman[501st]]

I agree with Mathias, this seem very specific to me. Here some back shots of Hero helmets and most seem to not have it:

 

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Edited January 3, 2022 by gmrhodes13
link not working removed

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

That pointy cap n' back might just be because the s-trim isn't well in place, or because of the neck opening trimming. If the neck opening were trimmed more rounded i'm pretty sure you wouldn't have that impression of pointiness.

 

In fact, looking closely at the picture it seems the area where the lines meet (giving the pointy look) is localized at the s-trim junction and that there's a gap between the two lips. That would explain why it gives that pointy illusion. To me it seems more like an "assembly" thing.

 

So don't get demotivated!

 

when you watch the film you can see it.  looks like he found one of the only screenshots where it's present.

and I'm figuring that it must have come from how the part was taken off the mold when hot.

Edited March 29, 2014 by TK Bondservnt 2392

[usaeatt2]

OK, baking is finished, molds cooled.  I used my cork "heat shields" and the heat gun to get the ear bump area really hot, then popped the ear onto the mold and sandwiched the other mold on top.  Held together for a minute and pulled it apart.  Pretty decent.  Did some sandpaper cleanup and bumped up a few low spots around the edges with the hobby iron (ABS probably wasn't hot enough near the edges).  And here you have it, world's first AP hero ear?  AP hero on the left, ATA hero in the middle, original AP stunt on the right.

 

 

 

Bad news is, I still have to make another one to match...

 

And finally, while I was waiting for the oven, I decided to proceed with my bicep modification.  I figure if it doesn't look right or I catch too much flak for not being screen accurate, I can always cut on the original line.  I just like things to have a good fit and finish.  You veteran guys are probably chuckling right now...  I'll do my best.  So here's how my bicep ended up in the misalignment area I talked about in the beginning of the thread.  You can barely see it, but there's a slight impression for the original cut line about 1/2" from the top on the inside piece.  This will allow a full length cover strip because it provides a place for the cover strip to "land" instead of being cut short to avoid the "misalignment area.  With a shorter cover strip, the edge of the outside part is visible and it looks unfinished to me.  Again, most of this will probably be hidden by the shoulder bell and will likely never be seen - but I'LL know it's there.

 

 

Anyway, fun is over for today.  Dinner time and the wife wants to go see Divergent tonight.

 

Till next time,

Aaron

[usaeatt2]

After digging through probably 50 screen shots, I finally found one that shows the "point".  I agree, this probably happened when the cap back was pulled off the mold when still too hot.  After looking at all the screen shots, LFL photos and reference photos from different exhibits, I'm pretty convinced the pointed back was on ONE hero helmet.  I'm not worried about it anymore, but it was a lively discussion.  Maybe I'll do it someday, but I'm going to proceed without the point for now.  Thanks again Mathias and Germain!!!

[Locitus[Admin]]

You're welcome Aaron. And nice work on the ear.