SE sandtrooper research and build thread

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

I know I know for the love of god why???!!!!

 

Well obviously I'm a ROTJ fan (centurion tk and DV). The SE sandies were casts of the ROTJ suits. It is also not something the folks at mepd or fisd have ever seen done completely before.

 

Most people hate the SE sandies but like the oft maligned ROTJ suits you have to accept that they are the tk that lucasfilm considers the ideal and they were in the movie.

 

Actually a ROTJ tk is more of an idealized tk than anything with most of the wonky ness ironed out of them and the lids having no screws and an overall smoother look. Most of us realize that by removing that wonky ness the Rotj tk lost something. Well after building my RS suit to a TD I have learned that everything can be helped with dirt...(sorry Pat!)

 

I found iconoclasta's helmet build where he took a CFO and was turn inning it into a SE sandy lid and it inspired me to use the experience I got from rebuilding my CFO suit and doing the first SE Sandie in the mepd. After the initial "oh god no!" Reactions most folks there are interested in seeing this happen.

 

I know that the SE sandy has not made it to a CRL yet, but the mepd leaders have assured me if I build it, they will have a CRL for me.

 

Basically I will be getting a new untrimmed CFO suit , but I will this time get legs from rob at rt-mod as his are made for larger guys and use overlap, and are a close match aesthetically to my CFO legs. The problem with my tk is that the CFO legs just don't fit a 6 foot 1 230 pound guy very well. They fit but its just not comfortable. (Actually trying to get 2 rt-mod leg sets coming to sub out my ROTJ tk legs as well)

 

In the meantime I am doing my research and plan to build the SE Sandie like I would a swat build. Choosing a trooper and matching his dirt/equipment as close as possible.

 

This will be a bit more difficult as research is slim on the hated SE sandies, they use totally different pauldrons and packs than the original TDs that I can't just pick up at the mepd supply depot.

 

Just thought I'd share my latest madness in case anyone had any insights other than the obvious you must be mental...not that I mind hearing that either

 

I'll try to document the build better than I have done in the past.

[gmrhodes13[Staff]]

Awesome standing by with popcorn and beer

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

Starting the research phase while I wait for the new kit parts to arrive.



Blue box: Button detail, ROTJ style TK buttons that seem to be unpainted in most shots of the SE sandies, but this guy may actually have the top one painted.  I think it is just dirt however, as it matches the rest of the weathering.

Red Square:  Belt detail showing squared corners again like ROTJ TKs.  Also used this shot as reference to determine web belt thickness (I am assuming webbing as the tour suit shots and the ROTJ shots show web belt material).  Using a super scientific approach I was able to determine approximations of width.   Basically I blue the pic up on my screen until the plastic belt matched my CFO belt width (around 103 mm or 4 and 1/8 inches) I then took out my Super Scientific Measurement Device (SSMD tm) I.E. a ruler and measured the belt width.  Right around 64 mm or 2.5 inches, like the ROTJ TKs again.

Red Circle:  What the heck is that? Looks like a rivet, but his buddies do not seem to have this.  could be dirt... It actually looks like a spot a rivet would have been for a holster on a ROTJ TK.  I wonder if they were going to do holsters and decided against it, or if this was a reused ROTJ belt?

Yellow Square:  Again Using my SSMD tm I was able to measure the drop box dimensions.  CFO Drop boxes are 126 mm x 65 mm (around 5 x 2 and  9/16 inches) according to my measurements it looks like these are around 126 mm x 66-67 mm. So the CFO ones are correct for the SE since I am willing to give a mm here or there for errors inherent in my method of size determination.



Blue Square: Nothing special here just pointing out the obvious ROTJ Clamshell style handguard.

Blue Circle: Helmet details, tube stripes  (cant really tell how many, or if it is a sticker) , Tears have lines, again not sure how many from this shot.  Ear rank stripes number 2 and skip a bump.

Red Circle: Showing the "thumbprint" indention on the left arm.  I can't find a shot ATM that clearly shows the right arm to see if it also has a thumbprint.

Yellow Square: Showing no obvious strap from Shoulder bell to around the arm.  I suspect this is done like the ROTJ TK which has a thin strap, higher up on the bell.

Red Square:  What is going on here?  Looks like this particular trooper has lost some of his molding around the chest.  It looks like the right section and all the bottom are gone.  This is not seen on the others, they have molding all the way around.  Naturally they would put the one with a wardrobe malfunction up front and center...




Red Square: Showing the rank bars again skipping a bump, and the traps on the back to me in this shot I see lines on the back trap.  I cant count how many, but they look to be there, which if they were reusing ROTJ TK stickers , or patterning the TKs after ROTJ, would make sense.

Yellow Square: Showing the molding around the back, butt, and the one piece butt and kidney.  You can see this trooper has no rivet mark or dirt circle on his belt like the other one.

Red Circle:  LOL A toilet tank float?  Looks like one to me...Fitting since the original packs used the cistern there.




Yellow Square: Sniper detail, trimmed like ROTJ and attached with rivets.  

Red Square:  Thigh ammo belt curvature at the bottom, attached with rivets.



Red Circle:  Bubble lenses

Yellow Triangle:  Black frown, more conforming to the actual frown than ROTJ which makes it a little sharper.

Yellow Circle:  Detail of shoulder bell showing the wide shoulder look.  has to be some padding under there, look at how extended the top strap is.  Can't tell if shoulder bridges are on or off of these guys, I would suspect with these suits being built with Tks they would have had bridges.

Blue Square: Detail of pauldron style 2 (the other is padded).  This one is flat, with sewn detail to differentiate the shoulder part.  It looks as if it is neoprene or rubber, no obvious sewn lines around the edges.

Blue Circle:  E-11 detail showing ROTJ scope rails, scopes, and the front that looks to be consistant with the MGC Sterlings used for ROTJ. (probably resin casts)



Further detail of the guns, but what the heck is going on with the top guys gun back?  It looks as iff it has another smaller diameter cylinder on the back of it where the d ring would be, but it isn't there on the second guy.



Yellow Circle:  Pauldron style 2, padded

Red Circle:  Trooper lost his drop box...

Blue Squares: Ab detail, trooper 2 seems to have a button painted but it is a consistant color with his weathering, so I believe it is dirt.  Trooper 4 has no paint on his buttons.

Red Squares:  Showing the black soles of the boots, as well as the difference in color between the cream armor and the white boots.  This is good news as my TK boots have black soles, and are whiter than my CFO armor.

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

Continuing a few shots from the anatomy of a dewback, poor quality, but some detail not seen in the movie.




The strap from the clamshell over the hand...This trooper has his on his wrist as opposed to having the strap over his palm...  

Also note the pauldron, looks alot like my Orange one, only black...



here it is again from a different angle.  You see its on his wrist not across his palm.  I blame user error...  Also this shot shows how the clam shell is not rotating with his hand, see how it is not at his knuckles?  I think this is because it is using the ROTJ strapping technique that has a strap from the forearm to the clamshell, which stops any rotation.  Not sure why they do it that way, other than to not lose a clamshell during transit, as a strap over the palm only alows the hand to rotate with the clamshell freely.
The chest and back side straps pictured here im not so sure about,  but that strapping may account for the odd black rectangle on the binoc trooper I pointed out earlier with the missing trim.



this is a shot of some ROTJ TKs getting rolled by some teddy bears... You can see the chest and back strapping and the back to kidney strapping in this shot.  Also note the thin strap from the shoulder bell that has actually gotten over the bicep due to the fall.  Granted this is ROTJ, but I am guessing they would have used something very like it.   EDIT:  I am not sure this is strapping from the back to kidney.  It looks loose, as if it runs under the back, but is not attached to it.  I think this may be suspenders.  If you look at the diagram there are no straps going from kidney to back.  With straps going from chest to back, and the chest secured to the ab, it is very likely that the back would not need to be attached to the kidney.  Also there is a thread  from the person who owns an original ROTJ suit, and he mentions that the use of braces (suspenders to we in the USA) inside his original suit.  also there is this pic that shows the actor has suspenders on attached to his thigh belt (to hold them up?)  that may well be what is visible in the back here.
 

 

here is a pauldron shot showing the padded one.  Looks a lot like a ANH black pauldron to me, but I am sure the experts on pauldrons may have an opinion on that.  I would suspect they reused old pauldrons, but did not have enough, so remade the unpadded ones, because they were quicker/easier, and less expensive than the old style.  In the Anatamy of a Dewback documentory George Lucas, comments on how this shoot while seemingly a big deal, was just one small part of the process, and not a very important one.  I am guessing that meant use what you got, and make the rest as quick/easy/cheaply as possible.

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

On the subject of belting:

Finding 2.5 inch webbing belt material is pretty much impossible short of special ordering it.  2 inches or 3 inches no worries but 2.5 nuh uh.

You can even see the top is rolled like you would expect a tube would be....



Here is another shot of a ROTJ suit (this may be a tour suit)  Red circles show strapping, but look at the yellow circle...Rivet right where our binoc sandy has one.  Not sure if it is to hold the clam shell of the suit together instead of elastic strapping, I.E. the belt acts as the "hinge" of the torso instead of internal strapping as a sort of on the spot repair, or what.  One thing is for sure not all of them have that rivet.

[Minuteman]

Frank, you do some great research work, really like it!

The enthusiasm and thoroughness you show .... amazing.

Will be following this thread - might RotJ become a future option for me?

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

Thanks !  Not sure if I want to be (in)famous for the SE sandy or not, but I think after 16 or so years its time for someone to show em some love.


I have a correction on the gun detail.  After staring at it some more, and playing with it in photoshop I am pretty much convinced its an optical illusion caused by the lighting.  If you look closer you can see it is a normal back:



In the upper picture I was taking the red outline section to be a smaller tub eon the back of the blue outlined section that I thought was the cap.

in the lower section you can see the blue outline is actually the cap, with the red line being the rear site and the yellow being the keeper  that you would push to allow you to take off the endcap.  It was just the light that made it look odd at first.

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

Continuing on, I found some nice info on Starwarshelmets.com. For some reason it never occurred to me to look there first to see what they had to say about it all.

This snippit from a guy who wore both the ROTJ Suits and the Tour suits: (bold text added by me)

Velcro held the calves together, but that is all, except for the belt and over-the-shoulder fasteners / shoulder pads. My calves were too big so they gaffer-taped mine shut with white tape. (nice to see I am not the only one!) The arms and thighs were glued- together NOT Velcro. The main body was held together with elastics. The boots just slipped on.
Under the pelvis was a rubber belt (that slid between the legs) (Rubber belt?  seems it would be elastic...) that was bolted (bolted?  since there are no obvious ends sticking out of the butt armor, if it was bolted it would have had to be done on a plate like the snap...) into the back piece and clamped into the front cup with a female button on the belt, and a male bolted to the front cup.

We never wore holsters or the thermal detonators. They were afraid people may try to take them off of us- we wouldn't have known! You really cant see much!

A belt was worn under the suit to loop the front thigh elastics into to hold them up. I could not sit in my suit! These were made for thin 70's British guys. The gun I had was METAL. In the archives I did see resin ones but mine was always metal.


And this piece of info from Don Bies:

In the mid 1990's Lucasfilm produced a significant number of Darth Vader and Stormtrooper Costumes for various promotions tours around the world. As Don Bies, the Lucasfilm Archivist explains...
There were a total of 18 Darth Vader's made for the Fox marketing campaign of 1995, and I believe 32-36 Stormtroopers made. Fox needed so many for different campaigns around the world, so they were sent off to places such as Australia, the UK, Italy, Spain, France, Mexico...A manual created by me accompanied each set (One Vader and Two troopers), explaining sizes of actors, how to dress, and how to act. Unlike the popular myth, the suits were not made for the Special Editions, although many of the Stormtroopers were used in some of the scenes for extra filming, as the many original suits were in bad shape.

The ILM model shop, under the guidance of Charlie Bailey, made the Stormtroopers, and I believe they were created using styrene. The molds were fabricated by pouring plaster into existing parts (ESB or RotJ era suits), and cleaned up here and there--though many parts are not as sharp as their originals. Additionally, some smaller patterns were created new, such as belt and knee details. They also molded prop guns to go with the characters out of urethane.

If this is true then the SE Sandy was indeed a tour suit, patterned and molded from ROTJ armor.  It does not really Jive with the anatomy of a dewback documentary where they keep going on about using original armor etc (which we know for a fact isn't true as these are ROTJ esque TKS)  I can see the guys pulling the SE suits out of the existing tour suit inventory though.  

Here are some cool shots of the SE/Tour suits going together which do not offer alot of new detail, but are nice:

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In that bottom pic look at the crotch of the suit.  A wide strap, that looks to be a snap, on a plate..the next suit you can see the cup area of the crotch looks to my eyes the strap is glued (with that famous white glue residue) to the cup.  No idea if it is really rubber or elastic, the guy who wore them claims rubber, but im pretty sure that is a snap not a bolt so...

If the suits were indeed tour suits, this is good news as there are all kinds of shots of tour suits from the various exibits around the world. like this one, also from Starwars helmets:

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it shows the ear rank marks 'skipping a bump" and a clear sticker on the cheek/tears.  5 stripes on the tear, 12 on the cheek of this one. (CFO stickers have 13 on the cheek and 5 on the tear)

and this one showing the back of a tour lid on whitearmor:

-----------

Showing 9 stripes on the left back trap (CFO has 9)  Have not found the right trap yet, but the CFO sticker has 8 there...

Check this shot out:

-----------

look at the wide white band of elastic going from chest to back.  None of the other tour suits I have found (or the SE sandies) have a white elastic there, making me think this was a repair job, but if they repaired it, even with the wrong elastic, it means there was probably a connector there in the beginning that was replaced.

Other note is look at that shoulder strap, what the heck?  Long and flexy... Does not really match my CFO.  Seeing as how it is not seen under the pauldron, and was only attatched to each side with velcro, I wonder if they might have left it off of the Sandies.

Look at this shot, which granted is from a ROTJ suit I am pretty sure:



Red Circle: black elastic from shoulder to chest, much like the white elastic from ANH.  If this was present they would not have needed the bridges to hold the armor together at the top, so would they have bothered with the bridges?

Black Circle  Very thin flexy shoulder bridge again.

Yellow Circle (and small blue Circle):  Just pointing out the elastic at the shoulder bells.

Large blue Circle:  Hmm looks like strapping from the ab and kidney that would probably have been glued to the back and chest at some point maybe?  I would think that a skinny short actor would not need a back to kidney connection, but as I am neither short or skinny, its probably best i put one in http://forum.mepd.net/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif

Edited May 19, 2022 by gmrhodes13
link removed no longer working

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

Continuing on Starting to look at the back pack:



Just pointing out a few details.  the yellow square shows 'shotgun shell" esque things on the side , though they look like they may be capped.  The blue square shows the strap from the back pack. the red square shows the top white detail...not sure what this found object would be, its similar to an oil filter but not exact.  The red Circle shows what would be the tupperware lid on an old pack, looks like a lighter circle indented into a larger black cover this could still be a lid I suppose of some kind.

The white lines are where I think the chest to back strapping is, the red lines in it are what I think happened to this troopers molding.  I think it came loose from the side and got tucked behind his strap, whether on purpose to hid a flapping edge or an accident when the costume was being put on I don't know.



Not much to see here, just showing the depth of the pack, but look at the red square....ribbed shoulder bridge peeking out.



Just some more back detail that had been washed out in previous shots.





Few more details, and red circle shows the ribbed shoulder bridge again. Yellow circle shows lines on the back trap.



From the anatomy of a dewback...Yellow Circle shows the inside of the pack it is a hollow concave (or convex depending how you see it) back instead of a frame of any kind.  Looks like the sides curve around the body.  Red box shows the shotgun shells again (look to be plumming pipe with caps, or possibly large fuses, dunno.

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

Here are some shots of the Gentle Giant mini Bust that has a SE backpack, granted not 100% accurate but still some nice shots:




Shows the way the back pack sides curve. also the top detail just visible in some shots from the movie where the hose connects.

 

I am guessing they were given access to the vaults which allowed them to make the bust based on the SE pack.

Edited July 9, 2013 by rhapsodyred99

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

The hose came in for the belting and I grabbed a few pics of the hose unmodified in any way.

 

This is single jacket hose, the very light duty hose. So for a belt it is plenty strong enough, and you can get a needle through it (I tried).

 

 

weave detail

 

 

 

Inside showing the rubber, as I push it open.  Its natural state is this:

 

 

so it already wants to lay mostly flat

 

 

here it is wrapped around my waist, which I found was hard to take a picture of, but should still give an idea.

 

 

 

And here I have wrapped it tightly around my CFO leg armor to give an Idea of color and what it would look like on the costume.

 

It is a little thick looking perhaps, and could stand to be ironed flat, or maybe sewn in some way.  Possibly have the two sides glued...or for that matter cut most of the back off and secure the rolled over edges.

 

I am happy with it and may just leave it the way it is, but since I had to buy 25 feet of it I have some play room so I may try some different things out.

 

I actually like the thickness of it for the holster/blaster.   It should hold up much better than the thin belting I have on my ROTJ now which as you can see from my EIB and Centurion threads puckers around the holster rivets and pulls down with a blaster in it.

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

I used my SSMD tm to work out some measurements on the pack as well.  

Basically taking a part I knew the dimensions of (belt and drop box) I was able to use the POWER of MATHAMATICS, (stop lookin at me like that...Back off man, I'm a Scientist!) to determine some basic dimensions.

I know there is some inherent inaccuracy there as perspective, and camera angle etc will  throw off the measurements, but I was able to get results that more or less make sense to me so while not completely 100% to the mm as they would be if I could get the real pack in hand (anyone know someone that knows someone that could get me a tour into the vault?) I think they are close enough for me to start hitting the hardware stores and trying to find some matching bits and bobs.

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

I just figured out that  there were 2 different packs used in the SE.  It looks like only one trooper had the "new" version.  

When I was going back over the Anatomy of a Dewback to get as much pack details as I could I noticed that the pack pulled ou tof the box was missing its pump head and second hose.  also looked like the top of the gray(white?) cylinder (thermos, water filter?) was different.  At first I was like huh must have gotten knocked loose in transit or something, since you can even see the hole that the second hose would have went in on the left side when he spins the pack.



I then went on to watch the desert scenes and what do you know, that pack was used like that in the movie on this guy:




Looks like you never see him from the back as all the others you get a side/back view of do have the 2 hoses and rounded top on the thermos waterfilter  thingy.

Based on the documentary I think this is the guy wearing that pack.



I'll be building the pack the gentle giant bust is based on however, as I think it is more interesting, and is being worn by the second binoc sandy (the one hose pack troopers patrol buddy), which is who I think I will try to build.

Just thought Id share that there looks like there were 2 different packs used on the SE sandy.

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

As I was trying to get a better idea of what the little "radar Dish" thingy was on the pack I took a closer look at the trooper with the possibly painted ab buttons.



As you can see in the red square the buttons are the same color as the dirt/weathering in the smaller red square, they are also hit or miss covered.  I am sure they were unpainted and when the dirt was applied, since they were a high point they got dirt on them.

The Blue square shows the cut angle pipe, not an elbow (you can actually see a hollow on the other side in another shot if you lighten it way up in photoshop)  and it looks like the dish part is sort of a dome shape.  It reminds me of something but my visual memory is failing me at the moment.

Yellow square is just pointing out where I am positive the chest to back elastic band is and the troopers side chest molding is tucked behind it.  All the armor made with trim that I have seen have  a single piece of trim on each side (thats why his whole bottom is missing not just a part of it) So this trooper should not have had a break in the molding there unless it was cut, or tucked behind the elastic.  if you look close you can actually see it has lifted a bit from the chest and then stops abruptly at a line that is consistant with the chest to back elastic seen on other tour suits/ROTJ suits.  So for original strapping people, there was a strap there I am sure of it.

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

can you sell me some firehose for my TKC?  PM inbound

[Turrican]

I not like those troopers, but your effort on research are great and nice to read.

Looking forward what you will dig out and build as next.

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

Thanks, most people HATE these guys but I figure someone has to document em

 

Here is my Best guess on parts used for the pack.

I know the water filters are not Exact, the problem is I have no idea other than dumb luck what would get me an exact match.  the ones available locally are close to the right size/shape, but have some different molding that makes them not an exact match.




All the products shown are simply to give you an idea where I am comming from in my thought process.  I know they are not a 100% match yet, but I am getting there...

 

I stated in the pic that I thought the ribbed top section of the pack was a pump head (I was thinking they got it the same time they got the flexy water hose like for ponds) but the more I look at it the more it look slike a small engine cylinder head, which may explain the thing at the bottom of the pack if it was an air filter housing for the same small engine.

 

something like this:

 

[rhapsodyred99[TK]]

I finally dug out my Making Magic CD, which will not run on Windows vista or 7.  I had to dig out an old laptop to play it on.  It is a DOS based program but it has some pretty good production photos (some of the cropped down ones are on starwarshelmets).

I appologize for the quality, but I have no Idea how to screenshot a Dos program and so I took a picture of the screen with my phone, and the screen is a  pretty low res one as you can imigine since its old enough to run dos...

Look at what I see at the base of the table with all the trooper helmets:



Is that a sandy with a cardboardbox mocking up the backpack?  It is certainly  a dirty armor set.  Look at that black strap from chest to back.  Look at the rivets on the shoulder bridges.  and the extra long flexy shoulder bridges.  Seems more and more likely these were tour suits used in the production.  You can see in other pictures of just white TKs running around the longer bridges as well.

And look who is photobombing in the background here:



is that the back of a sandy?  pretty dirty (could be the same one with his box gone)

Another thing I can now see in the big picture (not shown sorry) is that the helmets on the table are held together with a rivet in the cap-n-back to the faceplate similar to ANH lids.

not any real new insight but I thought it neat.

[stevebeast[TK]]

I'm interested to know what ever happened with this, I have a cfo kit that is turning yellow and would love to do a SE sandy and get a shiny new white tk.