FX Centurion Discussion.

[ObiHahn[TK]]

While this looks to be quite a clean and skilled FX build in general and Neil is very enthusiastic about any demanded mods, I for one do not feel the FX style armor per se lends itself to being able to convey that screen accurate look Centurion was supposed to represent in the first place. No matter what modifications are done to FX armor, it will always remain way too clunky and disproportionate as opposed to form fitting and sleek like armor with real movie production lineage (or superior, well-observed fan sculpts like TM armor).

 

This is by no means about excluding individuals but moreso about a trend I see to thoroughly water down what was supposed to be the highest achievable detachment standard. After years of discussion about FX armor not being an ideal choice even for basic 501st acceptance, I am a bit surprised that FX and recasts thereof are now seriously considered for the (as of now) highest quality representation of our stormtrooper costuming group.

 

Just my humble personal opinion of course, but I feel it is important for me to point this out. If this is derailing this topic too much, please feel free to move this into a more appropriate section.

Edited September 17, 2012 by ObiHahn

[Locitus[Admin]]

While this looks to be quite a clean and skilled FX build in general and Neil is very enthusiastic about any demanded mods, I for one do not feel the FX style armor per se lends itself to being able to convey that screen accurate look Centurion was supposed to represent in the first place. No matter what modifications are done to FX armor, it will always remain way too clunky and disproportionate as opposed to form fitting and sleek like armor with real movie production lineage (or superior, well-observed fan sculpts like TM armor).

 

This is by no means about excluding individuals but moreso about a trend I see to thoroughly water down what was supposed to be the highest achievable detachment standard. After years of discussion about FX armor not being an ideal choice even for basic 501st acceptance, I am a bit surprised that FX and recasts thereof are now seriously considered for the (as of now) highest quality representation of our stormtrooper costuming group.

 

Just my humble personal opinion of course, but I feel it is important for me to point this out. If this is derailing this topic too much, please feel free to move this into a more appropriate section.

As the CRL is written today, there's nothing I can do about it.

[ObiHahn[TK]]

As the CRL is written today, there's nothing I can do about it.

 

This proves my point exactly: for a true level of higher achievement in accurate, detail-oriented TK costuming, the CRLs are in dire need of a re-write.

 

Make EIB and especially Centurion stand out by excluding FX armor, simple as that. Only armor with clear screen lineage should be accepted, as "hard" as that may sound. The public accepted that the FX bobblehead bucket is cr@p... guys, the armor to go with that is cut from that same cloth, I still shake my head over hardly no one mentioning or acknowledging this fact...

A LADA will not turn into a PORSCHE if you slap chrome PORSCHE hubcaps on it. There, I said it, crucify me.

 

As it stands today, I don't really see a difference between what basic 501st approval requires and where Centurion will go if FX-style armor is allowed in the future.

[bigironvault]

If this hypothetically happens, then AM armour would also have to be excluded. Given the big fuss over grandfathering the FX lid. I can't see what you want happening very soon.

 

(Mind you, I don't disagree with you. But it is what it is today.)

[Locitus[Admin]]

If this hypothetically happens, then AM armour would also have to be excluded. Given the big fuss over grandfathering the FX lid. I can't see what you want happening very soon.

 

(Mind you, I don't disagree with you. But it is what it is today.)

Despite the flaws of AM, it's still an in improvement over FX. But the chest and back should be replaced either way.

[Dr.Senf]

just found this thread.

Wow this dude really works his slave leia of to fix those fx issues but i agree with obihahn about finally getting the standarts even higher and not trying to force the first fx armor up to centurion standard.

In my opinion and i am really sorry for you mate a FX armor will never be up to centurion level.

Sorry to say that but it will always be an fx no matter what you do about it.

just my two cent

 

but i really like the efford you re putting in this project.

Thumbs up!!

[ObiHahn[TK]]

If this hypothetically happens, then AM armour would also have to be excluded. Given the big fuss over grandfathering the FX lid. I can't see what you want happening very soon.

 

(Mind you, I don't disagree with you. But it is what it is today.)

 

I agree, I forgot adding the "improvement" that AM is considered to be. It's all the same to me, FX-derived clunkyness. Proportions are not too well observed: it certainly was good enough back in the day and the Legion would not be where it stands today without our "working horse" that the FX is, but this is 2012, not 1997...all things need to die sometime and be put to sleep peacefully.

 

But enough of me derailing Neil's application thread, for which I'd like to apologize - to be clear once more, I am not trying to personally attack or belittle any individual owner or builder of any set of armor for that matter, I am just referencing years and years of discussion about FX/AM and their place in today's 501st and our detachment.

 

Would it perhaps be possible to move all this to another appropriate thread to make this a public debate, bobojuice?

[bobojuice]

You got it.

[ObiHahn[TK]]

You got it.

 

Thanks, Luis!

And just to put it into context: this is the thread I was referring to.

 

Should FX/AM be eligible for our highest standard badge? Basically, that's the core of my thread derailing.

Sorry to put you into the "spotlight", Neil, it's just that you apparently happen to be the first FX Centurion applicant so far. No offense!

[SuperTrooper]

Dennis, just remember that the CRLs are approved and edited by the LMOs. The detachments can't just change them on a whim. Otherwise the correct holster attachment style would be a base requirement dependent of movie version (just as one example).

[ObiHahn[TK]]

(Please note that I tend to say "FX" a lot here but really mean "FX and AM", for I do not really consider them to be really different)

 

Terrell, I do see where the "problem" comes from and how high up it goes, having been GML for my Garrison for some time, I know how hard it can be to be in the "pro accuracy" camp. Quality over quantity is mostly considered too "elitist" for what the 501st wants to achieve, and up to a certain point, I can totally see why.

 

But shouldn't our detachment programs such as EIB and Centurion be something the detachment itself decides on, not Legion Command? Basic 501st membership CRLs, yeah...no debate here, that has to be decided by the powers that be.

 

But the scenario is as follows:

one ambitious guy becomes first FX Centurion. All FX guys think to themselves: " I can add a couple non-functional rivets and snaps to my old set, they don't even have to be the same size/type/colour like they were on screen!"

And then, all of us become Centurions eventually. However nice and group-huggy that thought may be, it makes no sense to me if it's just superficial details that get added to a base costume that frankly did not age very well. FX will always be FX, there is no two way about that.

 

For "not really accurate" base armor, there is basic 501st membership (including all the awesomeness that comes with that alone). For anyone who likes to take things to another level, there are detachment programs to encourage the community to more accuracy.

 

While it sounds quite harsh to basically say "to really be more accurate, sell the FX and buy screen accurate stuff instead before adding all the really intricate and subtle details", that's what it boils down to for me.

 

Any opinions would be much appreciated. Go ahead and bash me as unnecessary elitist if you need to, but it won't change the fact that accepting low-detail base costumes for what started as a high-detail costuming program is really, really inconsequent.

[SuperTrooper]

No one should bash you for your opinion. No FX/AM helmets has been in the EIB and MEPD deployed requirements for years, I was DL when it was implemented, so there is a groundwork for restricting some armor makers when it comes to the above and beyond programs. I don't think it's out of the question to have some centurion restrictions similar as well.

 

Whatever the outcome it'll be the detachment that decides as all EIB and Centurion standards and changes have always been voted on with a detachment vote.

[tkrestonva[TK]]

As an owner of both (retired) FX and AM, I can assure you - aside from the helmet, the two are quite different.

[Locitus[Admin]]

And now you can make your voice heard in the discussion pre-vote thread I created. http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=21100

[ObiHahn[TK]]

And now you can make your voice heard in the discussion pre-vote thread I created. http://www.whitearmo...showtopic=21100

 

Done. That was fast, Mathias...what did I trigger here?

Not that I'm complaining.

[Locitus[Admin]]

I had already been working on it for a while. The list of amendments is straight copy/paste.

[ObiHahn[TK]]

I had already been working on it for a while. The list of amendments is straight copy/paste.

 

For a second there, I was a bit creeped out thinking you typed all that just now...

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

I had already been working on it for a while. The list of amendments is straight copy/paste.

 

It's true. He's been pushing on this list for a while now.

 

-Eric

[SuperTrooper]

Done. That was fast, Mathias...what did I trigger here?

Not that I'm complaining.

 

Yes It's already been a staff thread for a little while, and yes before this thread was made.

 

In retrospect to the earlier posts the LMOs the last two years have been much more willing to raise standards than in the past, and if you look at the base standards they are essentially the first version of EIB standards without the holster mounting but with no silver det stickers. Also the LMOs of late have been willing to have an open discussion about standards and if a good case is presented change their edited versions, this is how we have neckseals in the base standards. While it doesn't make everyone happy on both sides, TK standards are on the rise and even the base CRL recommends not having FX/AM helmets, something that would have been unheard of five years ago.

[ObiHahn[TK]]

Considering how in the last few years, standards in available armor and reference pictures have risen (it's quite easy to be accurate these days) I find it only logical for Legion Command to finally make the signature character costume of our 501st shine as best as it possibly could. It's been a hard labour for all parties involved to raise the bar and this is the main reason for me to bring this all up: let's not go one step forward, two steps back on this one.

While I always had the feeling that CRLs were left intentionally "low tier" to go for quantity rather than quality, I too see that this agenda has slightly changed for the better. Let's at least keep that spirit and maybe try and inspire more people to really go screen accurate - which unfortunately is not possible with idealized/simplified base armor kits. I had my fair amount of arguments in my Garrison while I was GML because I was always aiming for all applicants to be willing to update and improve their costumes above minimum membership requrements, and was called "elitist", "arrogant" and "snobby" by some who just wanted to go the quick and easy path...

Join the Legion with a simple costume, enjoy all Legion privileges indefinitely, be grandfathered ASAP and never bother with striving for accuracy ever again: this is a mindset that I never had much respect for.

 

For me personally, it's an oxymoron to say "I decide to buy FX/AM but then want to be really screen accurate".

And while I understand that bigger troopers might take offense, I have to be brutally honest and just say that no bigger troopers ever showed up in the movies for a reason. Like there never were small Vaders or female officers, it's just a simple fact looking at the source material.

 

No FX/AM Centurion (EIB: make that a program where FX/AM troopers can add rivets/snaps/screws and "accuratize" their suits.)!

[tkrestonva[TK]]

This isn't about going one step forward, two steps back. This is about improving accuracy standards in at way - and at a pace - that is still supportable and achieves buy-in by the majority of the active TK community that this detachment is meant to serve. That service includes all of those TKs, from those who need a lot of pushing simply to meet current base CRLs, to those who have already achieved dead-on prop accuracy right down to the paint runs, cracked armor, and gaffer's tape - and are still looking for ways to up their game via proper movement, staying in character during troops, etc. To do anything less makes this a much smaller place, and flies in the face of the primary reason why this detachment even exists - to serve as a home for ALL Legion stormtroopers and prospective stormtroopers.

 

If that means we have to take an incremental, one step at a time to improving the written standards (as opposed to giant leaps towards total screen accuracy) - so be it. If it means you have to personally work harder and in a one-on-one fashion with the holdouts of your garrison to get them to up their game on all of our behalf - then do it.

 

If you really think we have been moving backwards, I invite you to view & compare the group photos from Star Wars Celebrations I - VI. Next, I invite you to review the language of the CRLs and artisan programs (EI and even Centurion), and witness how they have evolved over the months and years. Finally, all one has to do is look at the photos of the Elite / Expert Infantry submissions over the years (including your own), and the forward progress becomes clear.

 

Debates are fine. We should have them, since that's how the available space is explored, good ideas come to the forefront, and we all ultimately benefit in the end. But at the end of the day each and every change will require a yes-or-no vote, and it goes without saying that when it comes to voting - majority wins. Hence the need for an approach that encourages, instead of demands. A brutal honesty, no compromises approach will only harden attitudes on all sides, sows the seeds for obstinance simply out of spite, and ensure that no further progress can be made because of a poisoned atmosphere.

 

FWIW - insisting that FX and AM are essentially the same kit is flat out wrong. That is no more a valid statement than saying AP and RS are essentially the same kit because they both are traceable to actual costumes. Anyone who spends time looking at them can see the differences.

[ObiHahn[TK]]

If you really think we have been moving backwards, I invite you to view & compare the group photos from Star Wars Celebrations I - VI. Next, I invite you to review the language of the CRLs and artisan programs (EI and even Centurion), and witness how they have evolved over the months and years. Finally, all one has to do is look at the photos of the Elite / Expert Infantry submissions over the years (including your own), and the forward progress becomes clear.

 

(...)

 

A brutal honesty, no compromises approach will only harden attitudes on all sides, sows the seeds for obstinance simply out of spite, and ensure that no further progress can be made because of a poisoned atmosphere.

 

FWIW - insisting that FX and AM are essentially the same kit is flat out wrong. That is no more a valid statement than saying AP and RS are essentially the same kit because they both are traceable to actual costumes. Anyone who spends time looking at them can see the differences.

 

I did not say FISD and the community are actively taking a step back, I am saying that I see a tendency to do so - and that we all should avoid it. There's a difference.

 

I find that honesty, however brutal or open to all kinds of emotional reactions (childish spite, denial, all are fine) does what it does best: it puts a spotlight on matters that, without a "heated" or let's say passionate debate, would remain untouched and unchanged. Say a couple honest words and at least you can expect a reaction.

 

When I put FX and AM in the same camp, I am saying: both are equally inaccurate and not very well observed interpretations of the stormtrooper character. RT Mod had a much better approach to emulating movie stormtroopers for bigger/taller troopers, and I stand by my statement that FX should not be included in serious programs encouraging screen accuracy. I can see that a lot of owners of FX/AM automatically assume that I am flat out just saying their personal choices suck (thereby personally attacking them), but that's neither intended, true nor the actual core of the whole matter at hand.

 

I hope we can agree that "FX/AM" and "screen accuracy" just do not go hand in hand and never will?

Edited September 18, 2012 by ObiHahn

[ObiHahn[TK]]

On a side note, more a technical observation: I am following this topic, yet it does not show up in the list of topics followed... how come?

I would not like to miss any responses, guys. Right now I just bookmarked this.

[tkrestonva[TK]]

We have a tradition here of defining screen accuracy in terms of degrees, one that has served this community quite well over the years and has enabled us to become the big-tent organization that other groups only dream of. From that perspective, I have no problem saying FX or AM in it's current iteration will never achieve "screen accuracy" as I believe you are defining it.

 

However, one should never say never, because the word never assumes moulds do not change - even TM evolves his moulds over time based on new discoveries - and I can tell you that even now AM is reworking some of the moulds to address the issues that have been discovered on this very forum.

 

FWIW - I personally agree with FX not being permissable for Centurion. Given that FX isn't even (legitimately) manufactured anymore, I don't see that as a bridge too far. But again, I emphasize that having owned both kits and often trooping next to older, FX troopers - the improvements in the AM kits over the older FX kits are clear.

 

We have a saying here in the U.S. - sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it. Passion is fine if used for a good purpose - in this case, to put a spotlight on a problem that might otherwise be ignored. But it's also a double-edged sword, and if not used properly (i.e. used as a blunt instrument) can hurt more than help. Much like the incident following C6 with the local news station, the heat of passion will bring attention to a problem. But it's the light of calm reason and good-faith collaboration that will resolve the problem.

[ObiHahn[TK]]

We have a saying here in the U.S. - sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it.

 

That same saying applies in Germany and the whole of Europe as well.

I feel though that by saying things that are true but by their nature also very blunt and direct, it also brings out the parties who are obviously only very easily offended on a personal level while ignoring what was actually said in the first place.

These are, according to my personal experience, mostly the same people who think that "close enough" costuming and basic low tier CRL demands are the thing to go by, if possible for all eternity.

 

If by just casually stating cold hard facts people are personally offended and then get defensive and spiteful... well, what else can be said other than that this is an outcome (at least) as offensive as stating simple facts in the first place. And certainly not constructive for the community either.

Wrapping each and every critical word into a fluffy and happy cocoon is not what brings change - it's controversial statements (or "supposedly controversial" matters) that move things forward.

 

And to summarize once more:

all I am saying here and now is that for the most elitist of elite programs FISD has to offer (Centurion, not even EIB and most certainly not basic 501st membership), watering down the application demands to allow inaccurate base armor is a hard slap in the face for those few really working hard to make their costume the best they possibly can.

There sure as heck is a place for very cool optimized and customized FX and AM armor (and I respect every single person's decision to buy/build/wear anything they want or can afford), but that place is not and should never be Centurion level.

 

FWIW - I personally agree with FX not being permissable for Centurion. Given that FX isn't even (legitimately) manufactured anymore, I don't see that as a bridge too far.

 

I see we're on the same boat then, Brian.

 

That's why I'm happy to see that there will be a voting.

Edited September 18, 2012 by ObiHahn