Screen accurate vs 'reality' accurate

[Dday[501st]]

So, I'm sure this discussion has been brought up before, but as I'm new and there are a lot of new people, lets have a new discussion on this.

 

So I see a lot of back and forth about screen accurate painting, modding, designing and while I see this as a great guide for authenticity, do we sometimes take it to far?

 

If the Empire, Republic, Rebels, Jedi, Stormtroopers, Death Star, Darth Vader, ...... (you get my point) were real, I think things would be a bit different in the realm of some of the way armor and weapons were modded.

 

Main point

 

The finer details. If the prop makers were not rushed for time and harried by directors to make something futuristic and known that in 2012 you would see every detail of something they never thought people would see a clear view of do you think they really would have put some extra effort into their props? What looks good on screen those days and these days is not the same, since we have HD this and HD that, every little flaw can be seen.

 

I think that if all of this was reality the blasters would be smooth, not rough on the details like the props and original sterlings were. Sure battle worn and faded/scuffed in place, but not with the super rough paint job that looks like it was rusting underneath and they just painted over it without taking the time to fix the problem.

 

The Ab plate buttons would have actually been a part of the armor, not an additional plate that sat over top of the armor.

 

Stormtroopers would have taken pride in their armor and weapons. They would have spent time cleaning it as much as possible, they would have polished their guns, they would have touched up problems as much as possible, especially those on staff duty like on the star destroyers, a super star destroyer, or the Death Star. Those on the ground like Sand Troopers and such in the heat of battle would have had roughed up armor, true, but that's unavoidable when you're in the line of duty. I'm sure when they got back to staff duty or back to civilization, they would clean it up as best as possible and if their armor was less then functional had pieces replaced. Even having a separate suit, one for battle/duty and one for home base.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of ex/current military here and you can vouch for this, we have different uniforms for different things and if something gets too banged up, it gets replaced.

 

For me, I like the screen accurate as a guide but making things as realistic to the vision of the Star Wars Universe is more important. I will be making my suit to this standard (while following the EI requirements of course!) vs making it 100% screen accurate.

 

So how do you feel about screen accurate vs "reality" accurate?

[Daetrin[Admin]]

The short answer is that you've already answered your question. Since the 501st is about trooping and the public sees us from 5' away and we wear these costumes from hours at a time, the goal is to reproduce what one sees on screen, not the props themselves.

 

When you watch the film in real time on a real screen you don't notice the crappy paint jobs, no stripes, gaffers tape, etc. and these guys are only meant to be on screen for a few seconds at a time.

 

And this is just the TK - there are many costumes were short cuts were taken especially on background characters, as no one really cared about these things and even VHS tapes weren't common until after ROTJ was released.

 

As a fan you can do whatever you want and totally go to town trying to replicate the props as they were (as opposed to how they looked), but again the 501st can't 100% quite go there.

 

Fortunately, there is room for both in this hobby - e.g. Star Wars fandom is larger than the 501st, so both can co-exist equally fine.

 

Some folks are really in to prop replication, but for practical reasons the 501st can't exist that way.

[Darth Voorhees[501st]]

I have this discussion with members alot. I persoanlly like what i call "realistic" screen accurate, basically, i want to look like they were meant to look on screen, not actually how it was. I like realism, but still want it to seem like the characdter is not from here. When a kid sees a stormtrooper, i want to seem like a real galactic soldier to him. I avoid the gaffers tape and HDPE showing through the helmet paint. HOWEVER i do like these things for display purposes sometimes.

 

i 100% agree with Paul!

Edited July 23, 2012 by Darth Voorhees

[matt black]

I agree with all the points made by Paul and Lou. For collecting I like all the scrapes and scratches but for costuming I like it to look how you were supposed to see it and not how we see it now what with blu rays and such. It's like if I wanted to build a replica of the General Lee. In real life the cars were patched up and just made to look good for shots of a few seconds long. They probably had weld seams, rust and dents. I would want the car to look pristine. Same thing with my armour.

Though I do like the wonkeyness so I guess it's a little bit of both for me.

[LadyInWhite[TK]]

I want to look like I walked straight off the screen, not straight off the set.

 

What fans remember on screen, in their imaginations and memories, is filled with story and adventure. One second of a TK or any other character has a lot of meaning and affect that the viewer brings to the experience, not just what was intended.

 

Only hobbyists and die-hard enthusiasts see the defects and details in the props and costumes - see beyond the story to what is going on behind the story, behind the scenes.

 

"Realism," like building armor that would actually be functional and cared for like a true soldier would, might change the structure of most of the costumes entirely. They were designed for show not for function. There are novel and comic book characters like Mara Jade that I guarantee would NEVER be caught dead in their "wardrobes" in terms of functionality. Han never changes clothes - or simply has 5 sets of the same clothes. Realism becomes what you, the viewer, are willing to believe and accept when suspending your disbelief. In the Star Wars reality, TDs did not polish their armor between their daily duties. The "why" behind this is backstory, drama.

 

So for 501st purposes, I stick to representing the story on screen.

[bigironvault]

I like the idea of the "ideal stormtrooper" myself too vs. completely screen accurate. But I think the little things from the screen like Han Solo hooks for instance are "cute" additions for that little flair.

[MisterFubar[TK]]

I thought about this a lot the first time I read through all the CRL's. Before I really read them I thought I would go for Centurion for sure, now I doubt I'll even go for EIB.

 

Unused snaps?

Elastic to hold down parts?

Cheap cruddy black chemical gloves?

Unused rivets and snaps?

 

While those details make it more screen accurate, to me they take away from the believability. That's a word, right? When i set them next to each other, I much prefer the look of the Master Replicas helmet to any of the Screen derived ones. It's symmetrical, there are no funny gaps in the ears, the brow is level... things I would expect out of a massed produced helmet designed for protection/function in combat, not a hastily thrown together prop. I won't go as far as saying the movies are ruined for me, but seeing all the high-res screen captures showing all the details of the suits really damages my suspension of disbelief and I don't really see them as Stormtroopers... more like actors in stormtrooper costumes.

[Locitus[Admin]]

I thought about this a lot the first time I read through all the CRL's. Before I really read them I thought I would go for Centurion for sure, now I doubt I'll even go for EIB.

 

Unused snaps?

Elastic to hold down parts?

Cheap cruddy black chemical gloves?

Unused rivets and snaps?

 

While those details make it more screen accurate, to me they take away from the believability. That's a word, right? When i set them next to each other, I much prefer the look of the Master Replicas helmet to any of the Screen derived ones. It's symmetrical, there are no funny gaps in the ears, the brow is level... things I would expect out of a massed produced helmet designed for protection/function in combat, not a hastily thrown together prop. I won't go as far as saying the movies are ruined for me, but seeing all the high-res screen captures showing all the details of the suits really damages my suspension of disbelief and I don't really see them as Stormtroopers... more like actors in stormtrooper costumes.

None of my rivets or snaps are unused. In fact, I think the old system of strapping, although I only use it partially is a lot easier to use, and makes a lot more sens than some other "creative" ways people have come up with. Velcro coming undone by itself and so on. The screen accurate way is very reliable and comfortable.

[bigironvault]

MisterFubar, while I understand your view. I do find a "charm" in the way the original costumes were seen on the screen. I mean in some ways, it's supposed to be a used future?

[Daetrin[Admin]]

FWIW, just as I want to be what's seen on screen, I really do appreciate all the prop replication guys have done and continue to do for the hobby. It's in part of their blood sweat and tears that trickles down to us, and even if we don't prop replicate the knowledge they've unearthed is quite valuable in and of itself. That, and as display pieces they are truly works of art in their own right.

 

So to be clear - a big happy family is how I see it.

[Mongoose[TK]]

Speaking as one who has gone through and survived room inspections in the military, yes in that case your uniform, rifle as well as your locker are all in pristine condition. Not a speck of dust anywhere, everything nice and clean, ready for inspection. At least as ready as you can be. That being said as soon as you hit the field all that goes out the window. Then it's all about soldiers comfort. Keeping warm and dry and keeping your morale up. That can be what the TD's are. They are on field operations. You get dirty when you're deployed for weeks. Day to day work, like my Stunt, serving on a ship I'll treat it the same way I treat my uniform every day. I'll have it cleaned up and ready for "work" when called into service. Scuffs will happen and if something gets too messed up I'll be emailing ATA to get a replacement. Got to keep my armor ready.

 

My stunt will be kept as clean as possible. Sure don't want to get jacked up by Lord Vader, doesn't seem the lenient type.

[Dday[501st]]

Daetrin,

 

I wasn't really looking for an answer, mostly just discussion of different peoples views of the two camps.

 

Awesome feedback by everyone, it really seems like a good split on both sides of the fence.

 

I'm probably going to go as ANH Hero, and likely to Centurion classification in the details. I see a few extraneous pieces in the accuracy like unused snaps, but we have to keep in mind, this is very multipurpose armor, maybe those crotch snaps are used for another type of trooper we never saw.

[Front-a-Little]

I like the "screen used look" when it comes to weathering the TK as seen in the Tantive raid for example and the overall accurate details (rivets/snaps). I even review new scuffs after trooping and decide wether I keep them or try to rub them off. It just gives the TK a more used look and a touch of really used gear rather than an all new shiny suit. I wouldn't go for paint chips and HDPE mockup paint because I suck at paint jobs and I'd never do this white-tape-to-keep-biceps-in-place thing because it looks really cheap in my opinion.

However, that's what I like to do with my armor. I appreciate the EIB and Centurion programs and the work of those who take it even beyond this level of accuracy. After all, we all do it for ourselves so we feel comfy and like a stormtrooper in our very own armor. A 5 year old kid will recognize us as a stormtrooper no matter if you have paint chips like first trooper to the left in ANH scene XY or if you don't have any rivets and cover strips used on your armor. Or they'll call you a clone, cause that's what we are now, thanks to "The Clone Wars"

[Locitus[Admin]]

I'm probably going to go as ANH Hero, and likely to Centurion classification in the details. I see a few extraneous pieces in the accuracy like unused snaps, but we have to keep in mind, this is very multipurpose armor, maybe those crotch snaps are used for another type of trooper we never saw.

No, the crotch snaps are used to hold your butt and crotch together so your butt piece doesn't flap around. As I said, there are no unused snaps.

[Dday[501st]]

I never saw a link between the 2 snaps at the bottom of the butt and the crotch in the guilds. But this is probably just me, having not built one yet... only a few more months to go until it is made.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Dday

[Locitus[Admin]]

Every single snap will make sense to you if you think about them while building.

[bigironvault]

I never saw a link between the 2 snaps at the bottom of the butt and the crotch in the guilds. But this is probably just me, having not built one yet... only a few more months to go until it is made.

 

LOL, sorry I so want to make a joke about the need for two snap sizes and cod pieces but I will refrain.

[MisterFubar[TK]]

Every single snap will make sense to you if you think about them while building.

 

They all make sense to me now, but that doesn't mean I like seeing them. To me, they take away from the illusion.

[iconoclasta_88[501st]]

I was digging the forum to look for weathering info, posts and tutorials and found this.

 

I am curious as how this discussion took place and why it seems that most people tended to think that idealization or at least partial idealization was the way to go.

 

I think that today, this issue must be divided at least 50/50, meaning the same amount / percentage of ppl go for idealization and screen accuracy, if not more for the least.

 

I personally think that idealization is not the way to go. In my time in the hobby, I have gone from wanting to look spotless, to trying to look better, to looking for screen accurate look and feel, to actually persuing the replica look and finally going all the way and try the Prop forgery "style". I have gone through many techniques trying to replicate looks and finally landed in a place where only original parts or replicas of original parts will make me happy. I still have a long way to go, the list is endless if you aim to get all the exact original parts, but with lots of patience, time and the right money, it can be done.

 

And for me, after trooping for 2+ years in my SWAT TD armor, and almost a year with my unfinished "prop forgery-ish" TK armor, I can say that doing it the way it was done on production, is more comfortable and looks better (IMHO) than any other techniques and styles I tried. And the impact on the public is very noticeable. I dont think they can notice the chipping and gaffers tape right away, but they always point me out of the TD or TK groups... they do notice something on my armor that makes me look closer to what they have in their mind and memories. I think that something, is the fact that my armors are pretty much screen accurate in both looks, style and build.

 

Wonder if as I did, people posting here, and the community in general, have changed their minds towards idealization of the TK armor... 

 

Just wondering...

 

Saludos.

[Darth Aloha[Admin]]

You know Juan.... I've been thinking a lot about this lately as I try to decide what my next stormtrooper related costume purchase will be.

 

In my experience most people don't want a reproduction screen used look but they also don't want to look idealized. Of the majority of folks I see come through FISD with build threads and then disperse off into the Legion at large to troop, they seem to want screen used-ish. They want their audience to perceive that they look the same as they do on screen without every little detail reproduced. I think that's a totally reasonable thing to want and most armor kits available these days afford people to have that middle ground without much fuss. I think you can achieve a certain level of that look without using the original strapping system or weather your armor just so for a TK. What we often forget about is that the 501st as a group gathers in costume for sale of the general public.

 

We should not lose sight of how the perceive us. One of the arguments against banning the FX helmet was the supposed bullshucks "10 foot rule" where most people can't tell when they're 10 feet away. That may have been the case when the entire legion was nothing but stay puft marshmallow headed FX bobbleheads. Now that there is a proliferation of more accurate helmets the FX stands out. To me it is more about uniformity than it is about utter screen accuracy. When we line up we should mostly all look the same to hardcore star wars fans as well as someone who has never seen the movie (who the hell are those people?!) and everyone in between. I want every TK in the legion to look a baseline certain way when we troop together. Ideally (pun not intended) in my fantasy world every single TK would be EIB level. At this point in the Legion's evolution that notion isn't practical. We would end up being a barrier to most people's entry into the Legion as a TK if we raised the standards that much, but that's my dream. 

 

On one end of the spectrum are the prop forgery or people who want to look like they just walked off the set. There are more of those folks these days than before because the increased availability of parts and accessories, such as RS props' fine products and people offering the original brackets and elastic. Still the prop reproduction people are few and far between.

 

Then on the other far end of the scale are the idealized folks. Having just had this discussion with TM about his acrylic capped armor, there is a way to look like what you imagine the TK would look like standing in formation on the Death Star. Just in the same way that the ROTJ Vader is super shiny and clean when he greets the emperor in the hanger (which is my version of Vader FYI) the accompanying TKs, in a real Star Wars universe, would be just as gleaming white as his dome was shiny and black. However the idealized 

 

My kit is beat up and weathered from mis-use and wearing it. Now and then I clean and polish it with Novus but I don't go crazy. I don't get the car wax buffer machine out and make it super shiny. I'm also not screen accurate in body size so I'll never be the right proportions even if I wanted to look like I just walked off the set.

 

To reiterate... somewhere in the middle should be the goal for all TKs with some that go crazy with idealization and others who go crazy with prop forgery. That diversity is one of the reasons that makes our hobby so frigging awesome. 

 

-Eric

[Dday[501st]]

Interesting that this thread is brought back up.

 

Given that I started this particular thread (but most definitely not this topic!) I'd like to chime in 2.5 years later.

 

 

I want to look like I walked straight off the screen, not straight off the set.

 

I really like this quote by Lady... screen vs set. I completely agree

 

 

 

Every single snap will make sense to you if you think about them while building.

They do all make sense, and they make a heck of a lot of sense.

 

I like the original strapping now that I have used it in almost all cases of building an accurate type of armor. You have to go with the snap/strap for the thicker armors though. I'm working on a set of thicker armor now and It's using snap/straps... but I put in the bracket screws for the look.

 

I think my sentiment is pretty much the same 2.5 years later. and I echo Ladyinwhites' quote. "off the screen vs off the set."

 

When I build armor I make it as accurate as possible while maintaining the knowledge that it should still look like a stormtrooper and not a like the suit is a falling apart stormtrooper. 

 

I could do a set accurate prop forgery though, just to play on the other side, but my personal vote is to stick to screen vs set.

[batninja]

I thought I'd chime in as a new guy to TK.  I'm a former military bandsman, so parades and inspections were my LIFE for several years.   Uniforms ironed, boots polished, equipment in 'ready-to-deploy', working order, the whole shebang.  I just want you to understand my background.

When I made the decision to go Scout and of course more recently Stormtrooper, I knew I could only go straight-up, polished white armor.   Period.  End of discussion.  My reasoning is simple: we are fashioned after a military organization.  A uniformed military unit.  I understand the look of dirtied Scouts and Sandies, and to a degree, a scuffed-up TK here or there, but when it comes to parades and high-exposure events, I'd rather see all that beautiful white armor polished back to the day you got it (or, in the real world military sense, the day it was issued to you).  Sure, wear your pauldrons and packs, but polish the armor.  Have some pride in your unit!  If a piece of your issued armor is damaged, get it repaired to specs, or get it replaced!

Imagine if Vader has requested a formal event/parade/ceremony on Tatooine.  Those Sandies would probably have been required to clean up their act or they'd get themselves called on the carpet by the Big Helmet himself.

When I saw the SW BluRay documentary, 'Star Warriors' (that's what got me back into trooping, by the way), I shed a tear to see so many troopers with dirty or unkempt armor.  Not surprised, just...saddened.  Even one of the parade bystanders commented, "Look at that one, he's all dirty!"  His tone of voice indicated (to me) that he did not understand why the trooper was all dirty.  it's possible that person never saw Star Wars, or only saw it once, or so long ago he didn't remember that there were dirty troopers onscreen.   Regardless, I think he came away with the feeling that the the trooper in question seemed out of place.

Having said all that, please understand, I like the weathered look in most cases.  Just not for high profile events.   My personal feelings.   Sorry.      /end rant

As for screen-accurate vs. reality, I agree with those who've stated that we should represent what the public thinks they saw onscreen.   Therefore, I will be wearing utility-style Nomex gloves with hard 'plastoid' armor plates, and my helmet will have non-painted decals applied.   It's a personal preference, but it's what I thought I saw on screen in '77, and I'd like to think the general public would agree.  That parade bystander included.

I have nothing but respect for those that go the extra mile for the screen-accurate look; that takes more time, dedication and blood/sweat/tears than most hobbies out there.   I have simply decided to go the route that makes this veteran happy.  In shiny white armor!

[Dday[501st]]

As for screen-accurate vs. reality, I agree with those who've stated that we should represent what the public thinks they saw onscreen.   Therefore, I will be wearing utility-style Nomex gloves with hard 'plastoid' armor plates, and my helmet will have non-painted decals applied.   It's a personal preference, but it's what I thought I saw on screen in '77, and I'd like to think the general public would agree.  That parade bystander included.

 

 

 

I will say... that if you have hand painted your helmet details to the same quality/level they did in the films and you see on most builds here, the bystander can't tell the difference from 1 foot away. Same goes for the handguards, if done up right

 

I personally like the nomex gloves though. I hate sweaty hands and with hands as big as I have, wearing a liner is not an option as I barely fit into the XL rubber gloves... however, I don't worry about this as I wear Vader and he has smart leather gloves  

[Dark PWF[Staff]]

This is an interesting topic for sure, and I believe that I also fall somewhere in the middle.  

While building my E-11, I debated about "real" vs "screen" for the finish/final appearance of it.  Ultimately, I stopped and said to myself "Yes, the E-11 is based on a Sterling SMG, but I'm not building a weapon based on something else, I'm building an E-11."  That moment, for me, truly clarified everything and pulled me from the prop-realistic lane I was sort of dancing in because at the end of the day, much as Ingrid said...  Off the screen, not off the set.

 

As it has been mentioned, we are representing characters from a military structure.  Trust me, I get THAT all too easily, and that is part of what led me to go with a Hero TK first.  That was what the sculptors wanted the TK to be seen as for close ups.  That was the details they wanted to have on display.  So, I choose to keep my armor shiny and white.

 

Something that will always stick in my mind:  during a Star Wars Reads Day that I was a part of at the Fort Rucker Post Library less than two months ago, a TB was using a Star Wars ABC book to have the kids guess what character/item would be on the page for the next letter.  When it came time for "S" they guessed Stormtrooper and that was correct.  When he held up the picture, one of the children (probably about five or six) pointed at me and said "THAT'S YOU!!"  Very quickly, a boy (probably about seven or eight) next to him corrected him "No...  That isn't him.  His mouth is gray, and the one in the book has a black mouth."
 

That kid was maybe eight years old.  He clearly had an interest in Star Wars, and probably had seen it, but every time I hear, or read "the general public doesn't know the difference." I hear that kid who wasn't maybe alive when the prequels were made pointing out that subtle difference and remind myself that the public may not KNOW, but they see.

I always want them to see what they expect/envisioned while watching the movies, as opposed to what they'd see if they went for a tour of the prop department.

[batninja]

Tim, that's a great story!

 

I will say... that if you have hand painted your helmet details to the same quality/level they did in the films and you see on most builds here, the bystander can't tell the difference from 1 foot away. Same goes for the handguards, if done up right

 

That's the issue for me - the public (especially kids) sometimes get closer that 1 foot away.   They like to touch the costume.   They want to know if it's metal or plastic, they want to see if they can see your eyes through the visor, hold the weapon, etc.   The more 'idealism' we can provide, the better...in some cases.