E-11 Power Cylinders Research Thread (renamed from "3 Central Fuses...")

[PlayfulWolfCub]

 

Thanks Playful Wolf Cub for contacting me!

 

Really glad you've joined us, Chris! I'm sure we can solve this mystery!

I started this thread just to talk about the 3 capacitors (or "fuses" as I then called them) but now I really want to pinpoint exactly what these parts are!

 

I feel I should repeat that I love the awesome cylinders that Russ made, based on your design and I mean no criticism at all by looking to get slightly more screen accurate.

 

Photos on eBay show that TCC is the English company that made "Metalmite". They also made the Metalcap, Metalmold & Metalpack series. I haven't found anything with a "K".

I've got an eBay autosearch on for Metalmite. Could you please post the photo that shows the TE" ?

 

I've bought the capacitors that Andy19422 found on ebay during his research on this subject. If there's a K on them I'll be extremely happy but either way I think they'll look really nice on my genuine parts E11 build. (I've highlighted in red the sections that match quite closely)

 

My suggestion that they went through the mounting bracket is based on this Mouse Droid photo - I've superimposed some more "ghost" TCCs onto it to show what I mean. I see no way the bottoms of the capacitors would be visible otherwise.

 

 

 

The picture below is of different capacitors to show that TCC made Metalmite

 

 

If the parts are from British military equipment (RAF or otherwise) I think there's it's likely that some British militaria/antique audio collectors will have the original equipment. There's a large militaria fair near me every 3 months (which is where I just bought my Sterling). If we identify what these parts are I can ask the dealers to keep their eyes open for them.

 

Has anyone (or could anyone) ever been able to get close to the Mouse Droid to take a cast of the parts? :ninja:

Edited November 2, 2011 by PlayfulWolfCub

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Erv over at the RPF (& creator of the awesome BlasterCore) just replied to me with this:

 

"I haven't been further in my investigations. Most people I've talked too are positive that this unit probably comes from military RF equipment. Many suggested an IF stage in a radar or something like this. Next step would be to visit a specialist and/or a junkyard dedicated to those parts to put a final point to that mystery.

 

As it's been seen in several props, there's a chance it was installed in those changeable aircraft racks that were gutted. That would explained why they got so many of them. The construction of the racks suggest the military use too (def not consumer electronics)

 

The number of pins of the valve socket don't provide so many choices for the valve type, due to the period of use, hence EF92. I have no doubt about the distributed amp topology neither for the use of the device : It's can't be audio (as confirmed by other people) as it's a super linear + *wide* bandwidth amp for RF instruments (radar, video, ILS why not). This is also (with no surprise) it's found in oscilloscopes as it's exactly the same purpose (large BW and linearity)."

 

I have no idea what most of that means as I'm no electrician but it gives us some more words & ideas to Google! lol

Edited November 2, 2011 by PlayfulWolfCub

[erv]

Hi !

I already posted my initial research on the RPF about those parts, just reposting the link here for convenience

http://www.therpf.co...45/#post1434827

 

nice pick on the capacitors.

 

 

 

My knowledge :

 

A) : Tuning coil of the distributed amp. Most people I talked too mentioned a possible IF stage at 9.72 MHz

B : Capacitors

C) : EF91 or 92 sockets, used until the mid 60's

D) : the other coils of the distributed amp (high side it seems)

E) : very clearly an antenna / VHF output. Relics of those you still find in your car radio antenna connection

 

my mentor mentioned that for the actual devices that were put in aircraft, it could be more minature (valves of the size of a crayon) but it could be a larger plane. Still, using EF91-92 type valves would rather suggest ground based military equipment.

This is not a power stage (electronically speaking) but a signal amplification (wide band) stage, so you cannot base the analysis on the size of the valves only.

Edited November 2, 2011 by erv

[ZeroRoom[TK]]

Is there something wrong with me that I find this one of the most interesting conversations I've ever read online?

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Is there something wrong with me that I find this one of the most interesting conversations I've ever read online?

 

 

Well, if there is, I've got it too! lol Now, hold onto your hat, there's more:

 

Andy, I had a touch of déja vu when I saw the pictures in your message, as we had a similar enquiry a while ago.

 

We think that the item is an IF strip from the Receiver of a Type 80 Radar. There were two similar strips in the Receiver system - one was a normal Linear Amplifier, the other was a Logarithmic Amplifier. The Logaithmic channel was used if the target returns were obscured by thunder clouds, when, as if by magic, the dense patches on the display 'thinned' and allowed the pinhead-sized echoes to be seen. It was expected that this amplifier would also have been effective against certain forms of jamming.

The Intermediate Frequency was 13.5 MHz.

 

Vic Ludlow

Registrar

Signals Museum

RAF Henlow

 

 

Again, i haven't a clue what it all means but I'll keep just googling & emailing folk questions & posting the stuff here!

 

(& my digital calipers arrived today, Zero, so I promise I'll take a break from this riveting stuff & work on the templates soon! lol)

Edited November 2, 2011 by PlayfulWolfCub

[lonepigeon]

I missed that overlay earlier pointing out the bottoms sticking out.

I'm not sure how that coincides with the top view of the actual E-11 prop which shows the center capacitor bent. It's just a wire at the point where it meets the bracket. Maybe the bottom two are longer?

 

 

I have the full res version of this pic, but can't post it due to agreements with Lucasfilm.

 

The replicas do have room for improvement. At the time we didn't have as many closeup exhibit pics available so the capacitors involved a little guesswork. They tend to be lost in shadow on all the original prop pics.

 

This photo would tell us a lot more about the markings if we had the original high res version...

 

In the 4th grouping of capacitors from the right you can see the top of the TE"

 

I think most of the markings could be pieced together from the high res photo. Anyone know the TK that took it?

IIRC I got this pic from the RPF years ago.

 

As far as the K goes. I can't figure it out. Metalmite capacitors seem to be marked TCC or Plessey (which are apparently two different manufacturers). I haven't found a company starting with a K yet. It could maybe be a K word in front of TCC or Plessey on the same line.

I wonder if there would be special military markings on parts like this? The military manufacturer might start with a K.

[Marv]

 

Really glad you've joined us, Chris! I'm sure we can solve this mystery!

I started this thread just to talk about the 3 capacitors (or "fuses" as I then called them) but now I really want to pinpoint exactly what these parts are!

 

I feel I should repeat that I love the awesome cylinders that Russ made, based on your design and I mean no criticism at all by looking to get slightly more screen accurate.

 

Photos on eBay show that TCC is the English company that made "Metalmite". They also made the Metalcap, Metalmold & Metalpack series. I haven't found anything with a "K".

I've got an eBay autosearch on for Metalmite. Could you please post the photo that shows the TE" ?

 

I've bought the capacitors that Andy19422 found on ebay during his research on this subject. If there's a K on them I'll be extremely happy but either way I think they'll look really nice on my genuine parts E11 build. (I've highlighted in red the sections that match quite closely)

 

My suggestion that they went through the mounting bracket is based on this Mouse Droid photo - I've superimposed some more "ghost" TCCs onto it to show what I mean. I see no way the bottoms of the capacitors would be visible otherwise.

 

 

 

The picture below is of different capacitors to show that TCC made Metalmite

 

 

If the parts are from British military equipment (RAF or otherwise) I think there's it's likely that some British militaria/antique audio collectors will have the original equipment. There's a large militaria fair near me every 3 months (which is where I just bought my Sterling). If we identify what these parts are I can ask the dealers to keep their eyes open for them.

 

Has anyone (or could anyone) ever been able to get close to the Mouse Droid to take a cast of the parts? :ninja:

 

Hi Andy

 

Thought I'd pitch in here.

I recently was in conversation with Cal at Far Away creations. He sent me a mock up of a cylinder which he used on his mouse droid (the RPF thread of this is here). I though he would be a good source in terms of being able to possibly create a nice template for a set to sit on my E-11. The cylinders on the Mouse droid are apparently 84th scale.

They measure 33.5mm in length.

If my maths is correct this would make the actual size of the length (33.5/84)*100=39.88 I don't think this is correct at all! So am a little gutted by what I have.

I'm not sure there is anyone there who is any the wiser than anyone her on the FISD about the origins of these pieces.

 

With regards to your observations about the size of Russ cylinders I would agree 100% that his are too small. Andy and I discussed this at some length some time ago (but more on that later). Though I am still on the waiting list for a set

Edited November 2, 2011 by Marv

[PlayfulWolfCub]

II wonder if there would be special military markings on parts like this? The military manufacturer might start with a K.

 

Now there's an idea! The military often change the designations of gear, don't they. I noticed they changed the names of the valves that fit into equpment very much like this but I didn't extend that thought to the other components!

[PlayfulWolfCub]

If my maths is correct this would make the actual size of the length (33.5/84)*100=39.88 I don't think this is correct at all!

 

 

I think you're right there but I'd be interested to see a photo anyway - always nice to see peoples' work.

 

Russ's set look great - if I didn't want to make my own I'd have ordered a set myself!

[Locitus[Admin]]

It's very reasonable that the components are commercial off-the shelf-stuff,but made to higher tolerances than normal, and with military designations instead of the companys own. Kind of like how it's rumored that Google gets special CPUs from Intel with higher tolerance to heat than other companies just because they buy so friggin many of them.

[Marv]

 

some of the aspects you mention are the tube sockets "squarish holes" this would be the tube element of the amp.

the power cells on a blaster are all capacitors in the chain.

 

the 2 larger capacitors, with the 3 or possibly 2 capacitors between them is the part that's placed on top of the e-11

 

the squarish holes would have somthing "like" this plugged in.

 

but it's an audio tube. not just a transistor

 

 

Hi Vern,

 

Andy I have spent an awful lot of time over the past months looking for this component, though to be honest both our interest has wained somewhat. I think that has come in part due to what were all looking for is most definitely going to be exceptionally hard to find. We covered ground on the Valve amps and we found that these were most likely to be Mullard EF-91 which were used in military equipment. The screeing cans on these are 18mm in diameter, which I think would make the cylinders approximately 8-10mm in diameter themselves.

 

In our search going back a few months ago now, Andy and I determined that this was an IF strip from a radar set of some description, this led to various communications to museums and what not none of which could positively identify the strip, though pretty much all confirmed that this was an IF strip of some description. Our threads/leads led us to believe that these IF chassis may have once been part of either a Type 13/14 radar transceiver. Or possibly a 70MHz RAF receiver which was not very common. The chassis for which would have used the EF91 valves and may have been tuned to 9.72MHz.In fact we managed to find out that a military surplus store, now long closed down in Liverpool used to break down this type of equipment. We did however find out that his stock had come from RAF Sealand.

RAF Sealand however has been long closed.

 

Not all was lost. Sealand since its closure in 2006 was commandeered by the 'Defence Support Group (DSG)' which is responsible for the repair and maintenance of Avionic equipment operating as part of a Trading Fund of the Ministry of Defence. I wrote a blind letter to the DSG in the hope that someone could help. The response was somewhat unexpected, I actually heard back from the Head of DSG Electronics and Components himself. Though he did not know what the parts were himself he passed the pictures that Andy originally provided around the organisation. The strip was confirmed at operating at 30MHz the tuned circuits were pysically too small to be operating at the suggested 9.72 MHz. They had once had such equipment during the 70's it had been donated to their training school (unfortunately it had been long disposed of) and had been used on Radar. He suggested that this was manufactured by Marconi.

 

I attempted a couple of other avenues one of which was a Museum in Chelmsford which has a Marconi meuseum but I never got anything back. With work and other projects on the go. I simply couldn't keep up the momentum. Though if PlayfulWolfCub hits on something new I may just p r i c k up my ears again

Edited November 2, 2011 by Marv

[Locitus[Admin]]

Wow John, that's some impressive field work!

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Wow! Thanks for posting all that, John! I'll pick up the research "baton" & run with it for a while while I've got noobish enthusiasm!

 

I'm not sure what you meant by: "Though if PlayfulWolfCub hits on something new I may just a very impolite person my ears again "

 

I'm guessing there's a typo but I can't guess what you intended to write.

 

Cheers

[Locitus[Admin]]

a-s-s usually gets replaced with that.

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Though if PlayfulWolfCub hits on something new I may just p r i c k up my ears again

 

Ohhhh! Of course, auto-censor!!! lol

[Marv]

Ha! no you have to read my edit. My posting was altered it obviously doesn't like the word pr***

Mathias - Andy I would suggest put in far more ground work than I. It was nice getting mail from him it simply helped spur you along. I heard from him today and I believe he is no longer in the search

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

i think you have nailed it!

 

the center 3 do appear to extend past the bracket at the rear!

 

 

and hopefully this is the layout of the cap's

 

 

awesome work! and this photo and the other comparison photo seem to have NAILED the layout!

 

as for the coax description- I'd like to offer that the RCA style plug is more resembling the plug, and that it's not an AV signal carrier like for a television plug.

 

again

 

AWESOME WORK!

 

so what's the length and diameter of the part?

Edited November 2, 2011 by TK Bondservnt 2392

[Marv]

 

I think you're right there but I'd be interested to see a photo anyway - always nice to see peoples' work.

 

Russ's set look great - if I didn't want to make my own I'd have ordered a set myself!

They really are Mouse Sized

 

[Marv]

i think you have nailed it!

 

the center 3 do appear to extend past the bracket at the rear!

 

 

and hopefully this is the layout of the cap's

 

 

awesome work! and this photo and the other comparison photo seem to have NAILED the layout!

 

as for the coax description- I'd like to offer that the RCA style plug is more resembling the plug, and that it's not an AV signal carrier like for a television plug.

 

again

 

AWESOME WORK!

 

so what's the length and diameter of the part?

 

I think the dims were on an earlier page:

Are they 26mm x 5mm, with 4mm end caps?

[PlayfulWolfCub]

 

As far as the K goes. I can't figure it out. Metalmite capacitors seem to be marked TCC or Plessey (which are apparently two different manufacturers). I haven't found a company starting with a K yet. It could maybe be a K word in front of TCC or Plessey on the same line.

I wonder if there would be special military markings on parts like this? The military manufacturer might start with a K.

 

Apparently in 1965 TCC was taken over by Plessey Capacitors which would explain why some capacitors have both names on & there's a 3rd manufacturer, Dubilier

 

"You may come across some large metal can capacitors that look similar to electrolytics but with both wires insulated from the can. They may be branded TCC, Plessey or Dubilier, although similar parts would have been made by other manufacturers. Sets built using war surplus components (such as the Barker 88) tend to use them"

 

Still no sign of a K though!

[PlayfulWolfCub]

 

AWESOME WORK!

 

so what's the length and diameter of the part?

 

Thanks Vern I'm astonished how Andy managed to track the capacitors down!

 

 

With my newly acquired & very shiny digital calipers the 9 capacitors vary between 25.8 - 26.5mm long, 5mm wide & the end caps from 3.5 - 4mm at their widest point

 

Their lettering doesn't totally match up with the originals on the landspeeder - we think we're looking for MetalMites.

 

I suspect that they may actually be slightly shorter than the originals but I'll suspend judgement until I've incorporated them into a 3D model that can be viewed from every angle.

 

Seriously though, can't someone just go steal the sodding Mouse Droid?!? :ninja:

[PlayfulWolfCub]

They really are Mouse Sized

 

For a ladies version of the E11 perhaps? Yeah, they're effective for a model, but not if you're after 100% authenticity.

[PlayfulWolfCub]

There are 5 lots of 10 very similar capacitors on sale on ebay if anyone wants some. Bear in mind we're not sure these are quite the right size yet.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-pcs-TCC-PIO-Capacitors-0-002-MFD-500-V-NOS-/220735560903

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

I was asking about the dimensions of the 3 inner capacitors,

the length of the larger longer ones matches the scale russ rep has.

can you supply a dimension for the smaller center cap's? the part shown above?

which have wires going into the baseplate?

 

if you have the correct center capacitors, then we can scale the rest of the parts.

 

this is a great thread, since I'm making my run of power cells later this month!

Edited November 3, 2011 by TK Bondservnt 2392

[Locitus[Admin]]

as for the coax description- I'd like to offer that the RCA style plug is more resembling the plug, and that it's not an AV signal carrier like for a television plug.

Sigh...

 

You can run almost any kind of signal through these plugs. TV, audio, AM, FM, RADAR. It doesn't matter what it was used for. I get my 100 Mbit cable internet connection from one of these.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Locitus