E-11 Power Cylinders Research Thread (renamed from "3 Central Fuses...")

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Consider yourself on the no-obligation list, Matt, subject to you liking the end result, the price & the delivery time.

 

Cheers, Andy

[jkno]

Can't wait to see some pics of a finished set.

[Lichtbringer]

 

Well, I have in fact just now finished helping my friend build his new RS kit to near screen accurate detail and painted his helmet. All in less than 48 hours. -> http://www.whitearmor.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=20377

It's his first kit and he knows little about TK's so I'm lending my hand and home to him to make sure it gets done right.

 

Sweet. I´m no expert in helmets and armor, but it looks nice.

 

 

[Lichtbringer]

Andy, i´m just playing devils advocate, so you can imagine what all may happen, and is happened before - and that you shouldn´t be to upset with the world if it might happen to you, too. It´s only a hobby.

 

 

Yes, I totally agree. Plenty of recasters make easy money off other people's hard work recreating armour, lids, etc. but we don't approve or condone it.

 

Making the same stuff is usually not considered as recasting, as the stuff is not taken and multiplied via RTV and Resin - making the same stuff usually involves the same amount of material and work for both. There is a lot of stuff out there that is offered from more than one person.

 

 

What would not be great would be someone selling cylinders (whether individual ones or mass-produced) from my templates after I've expressed my intention to do so. You'll notice no-one sells cylinders based on Russ's design even though his waiting list is very long. It would be against the FISD and prop community spirit.

 

Huuuh, thin line - which leads often to long an heated discussions.

 

It´s not solely your work, it´s based on other people finding the real parts, it was a kind of group effect with discussions, opinions and sugestions of a lot of people. You made the paperwork and the main part, but you never mentioned you are gonna making parts for sale and noone else should. In fact, noone would know whith what piece you would have aired without that input.

 

I´ve seen such things happen, that when some people noticed such teamwork would lead to one person trying to make money from it - the knowing guys just shut up and waited for him running against the wall. "I know definately your stuff is wrong, but i will not participate in you making money as long as the result is not free for everyone" - i did this several times myself, sitting on the real part and keeping silence. Willing to share for free, but not to help someone else business plan.

 

It would be a completly different story if you would have done all the work alone and then offering the pieces - then it would be indeed a bad taste to copy them.

 

There was never any need to copy Russ design, it is known for long that it is not really accurate, there was just no other/better kid in town with better toys. And with him having all the cnc machines makes it hard for anyone else to offer the same stuff for same or less money. There are resin versions out there for the cheaper builds. He had found a sweet and safe niche - the cheaper resin out there, his the only metal one in the mass market, and no better with higher price available. That´s why noone did offer other versions on regular basis.

 

 

As I said, I'm really looking forward to seeing how yours turn out with your proper tools.

 

Atm. i´m making equipment for smugglers and rebels - so it might take some time until i can do more work on it. With my mill out of order i can atm. anyway only do the lathe work.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Lichtbringer

[PlayfulWolfCub]

It´s not solely your work, it´s based on other people finding the real parts, it was a kind of group effect with discussions, opinions and sugestions of a lot of people.

 

I'm happy for us to agree to disagree on some points. However I need to correct you on this one for the benefit of anyone interested in this thread or in buying cylinders.

 

I don't believe anyone else can claim to have developed these templates, hence my belief that it would indeed be, as you put it, bad taste for anyone else to sell cylinders made from them.

 

The shapes and measurements of these templates are all my own work from studying the publicly resource available material. There is nothing copied from any previous templates although some measurements do approximately match. People have offered various opinions in this thread but they have not alterered my very lengthy & detailed analysis.

 

Andy19422 found the authentic capacitors after he & Marv did lots of historical research into the subject. I talked to Andy about him doing a run with my templates and I was happy for him to do this as he had shared a lot of his own research about the cylinders. He decided not to do a run and is looking forward to seeing mine.

 

I'd like really like to know how the community feels about this. If anyone has an opinion as to whether I'm mistaken or correct in referring to these templates as my own work I'd appreciate you saying so in this thread - especially anyone who's made posts here. I'm intending to sell very accurate power cylinders and to earn some money for my efforts but I have no wish to tread on anyone's toes or to "use" anyone. As I've said before, anyone who wants to make their own can ask me for the templates.

 

Cheers, Andy

Edited July 28, 2012 by PlayfulWolfCub

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

anyone who builds a helmet didn't make the buck. anyone who builds an e-11 didn't make the original design.

there is not much "ownership" of anything like what I mention above, these power cells designs are the work of

your own design from your own research.

 

yet it's just an artistic impression of the originals, since the prop department cut out the frame different on

different designs, there is a lot of room for interpretation for the maker as far as the baseplate is referanced

 

the individual components and their layout has been shown in the public domain for a long time, there have

been probably 4-5 different designs I've seen in resin, and probably 3-4 designs in metals.

 

the raised bar with the 3 center caps, and the outer caps, the research on the Y wing cockpit, all very stellar

and team oriented work!

 

I personally feel that if a single seller, or a team of sellers is a good thing for blaster accuracy.

it's just like the leather holster situation, there's lot's of people with different interpretations of the same

basic shape, and they all have plenty of troopers buying and wearing it.

 

no single person own's public domain designs. especially if you have done a derived work (changed, artistically)

the original design either by fault or purpose.

 

the hobby world is far too worried about who "owns" a design that started in the public domain.

 

I think anyone who runs a hobby business by paying taxes, and support their local and state government

should be proud of the product they produce, and support their customers by being open, honest and hard working.

 

it's a sign of good faith that you care,

 

I've sold quite a few cells myself, and I found it interesting that when I compared the central caps with the steel rods I'd been using,

before knowing the exact dimension.

 

my little steel rods are exactly the same length as the real thing, and that was really funny to me, because

I just eyeballed a dimension from a photo.

 

if a person makes blasters, then it stands to reason that they will need to make cells, or have a good supplier who makes them!

I've been asked to make quite a few blasters and holsters, and I've also had to use past research to make cells for them.

it's interesting to note how accurate the darkside/sskunky/synap templates were in comparison!

 

I myself sure would like to see runs done of this design. I'd purchase them and put them on blasters for people

as a sign of accuracy. the product's origin would be part of the advertised component list.

as an artist who takes commissions on builds myself, it's just a better landscape if we have

good parts makers to choose from.

 

I say go for it!

 

and we all do think a bit too much in this hobby... but that's the fun of it! eh lichtbringer?

Edited July 28, 2012 by TK Bondservnt 2392

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Vern. I appreciate that & I'll put you on the provisional, no-obligation interest list.

 

I think you're right about no-one owning public domain designs & I've freely shared all the work I've done with the community.

 

I do feel these templates are my own work though and that I have the right to ask people not to use them for profit. However, if someone does and their units look as good as mine at a better price then people will obviously have to decide who they want to buy from.

 

Yeah, sometimes the eye can be just as accurate as calipers I was very pleased when my measurements tallied with darkside/sskunky/synap's - it meant we were all pretty accurate &, at the end of the day, we're all just trying to make the best we possibly can, aren't we?

 

Cheers, Andy

[Lichtbringer]

You think to much about it - just make as much as you can do/sell - and enjoy your work, that´s the most important thing.

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

when you really sit down and think about it, there's a huge team of individuals responsible for all the hard and amazing work done

on this part of star wars.

 

I'd like to thank them all.

[jkno]

We all know LFL owns everything regarding SW, and still here there are the 501st with their fan made armors and helmets. And there are many people involved in finding the most accurate parts for all the SW props. But you were the one making those particular templates. It's not like no one else will be allowed to make cylinders from now on.

[PlayfulWolfCub]

We all know LFL owns everything regarding SW, and still here there are the 501st with their fan made armors and helmets. And there are many people involved in finding the most accurate parts for all the SW props. But you were the one making those particular templates. It's not like no one else will be allowed to make cylinders from now on.

 

Absolutely, & I wouldn't dream of suggesting no-one else makes cylinders, even using these templates - I like seeing people use them, otherwise I wouldn't have posted them along with my discoveries along the way.

 

My objection was to Michael saying he'd use them & deliberately undercut the price I sell my cylinders for. I thought he was joking but I wanted to clarify that I wouldn't be happy about anyone doing that.

 

I've said what i needed to and anyone can check my posts in this thread so see how my templates developed from my observations that there were 3 "fuses" (as I then called them), that they passed through the backplate & that the backplate was cut diagonally. Now I just want to get them perfected so the people who've expressed an interest in me making the cylinders for them can enjoy putting them on their builds, which is the most important thing, I feel.

 

Cheers, Andy

Edited July 29, 2012 by PlayfulWolfCub

[Lichtbringer]

A good propmaker uses all info/pics he can get, takes them into consideration to make his own mind of the details - and then comes to his own version. But he never takes anything as a fact that comes from another persons assumptions. Copying something 1:1 brings always the danger to copy possible mistakes. Only measured from the real deal is really fact. And while resembling the same basic shape, usually there are always small differencies when 2 people are "guessing" from angled pics.

 

And as i explained some posts above, i don´t think anyone will use your plans to make money - i was just teasing you . Maybe someone will bring out a version with the same appearance (3 caps, angled backplate, ...), maybe noone cares about it cause they think there is no additional profit to gain.

A good part is not only made from it´s dimensions, also and foremost from the way it looks. To build this special part the bracket needs to look as made with industrial mass production of the old days, with added parts like viewable on the pics - and only the cutting lines between 2 sets should look as made from hand. Mass production for profit needs numbers made with todays tools (especially cnc), which would not resemble the way the old stuff looks - additional refining by hand would ruin their prices. On the other hand it´s also hard to achieve the needed look only with hand tools. It´s doable, but many hours need to be used and paid, only to get the look/part of the industrial appearance - that hours to recreate a machined look by hand brings the price disproportional up.

 

I know that cause i´m a trained metal worker (have gone to school again later and now in a office since close to 20 years) and spent hundreds of hours with files and other hand tools to learn the jobs basics. And cause i wasn´t satisfied with many bought prop parts in one of these directions or the other (cnc/hand), and not willing to spend the additional hours to make it from hand myself, i decided to buy my machines. Some things are best done the same way as they did it in that days.

 

But on the other hand - i´m german, part engineer and part number cruncher - so it is possible that i´m more nit-picking/to nit-picking on such things. But that´s a main reason for me to prefer the use of selfmade parts (unless i KNOW the bought parts will suit my expectations - so the only person to blame is myself. If my work is imperfect to my eyes, it´s not the same situation as if i had bought other persons imperfect stuff.

[PlayfulWolfCub]

I know what you mean, Michael. I'm a hyper-perfectionist too so I totally empathise with your frustration with inaccurate parts. I'm not a German engineer/number cruncher though, I'm an English artist & musician

 

You raise some interesting points there about manufacturing . Hopefully I'll have more spare time in the future to discuss them further. Maybe in the meantime, someone else can pick up on them?

 

Cheers, Andy

Edited July 30, 2012 by PlayfulWolfCub

[andy19422]

Hi Andy, I think you will have a lot of trouble in proving someone has copied your templates. If I gave ten people who knew what they were doing a compass, ruler and lots of photos and also the measurements of the capacitors nine of the designs would be almost identical. I think your work on the computer enhancements have been fantastic but in the end this is a very simple prop to copy, It's just a case of how well someone does it. I decided not to proceed with them because you are doing a run and also my spare cash, and my wifes is tied up with my Stargate projects. I am looking forward to seeing your cylinders finished and will give you a call soon.

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Hi Andy, Yes, I agree, so I'm just going to get on with making mine as accurately as I can & see what people think. Talk to you soon. Cheers, Andy

[Eldrik]

When do you think you might at the point selling them?

[PlayfulWolfCub]

When do you think you might at the point selling them?

 

Hi Jens, I told Rob I'd get his finished within the week but work has gone crazy so it might be a bit longer. It'll be very soon though. My most recent prototype is getting close - I'm just not quite happy with various aspects of it yet. Here's a photo of where it's reached so far, in the display case I'll sell them in (I'll be putting a brushed steel shelf in the box so the cylinders' earth magnets hold them in place.)

 

One difference you'll notice which is a decision, not an inaccuracy, is that the end cap nuts are slightly different depths to the ones in this MSE droid photo. If you check other source photos you'll see there were 2 different nut sizes used on the cylinders. I prefer this slimmer version but may offer both sizes.

 

Also I haven't yet perfected the rear of the cylinders where all the extra electonic components are. Some of that was probably left on but I haven't come to a conclusion yet about how much.

 

I'm still playing around with the hand-cut backplate shape - this one isn't quite right.

 

The paint job isn't quite right either but I thought it was time I posted a photo to give an indication of where I'm heading with this build.

 

Cheers, Andy

 

 

 

Cheers, Andy

Edited July 31, 2012 by PlayfulWolfCub

[jkno]

Very cool!! Good to see work in progress pics!

[Eldrik]

Really a nice job so far Andy!

 

So if you sell one of these will it possible to add the right capacitors (which I got at hand) with already drilled holes?

 

 

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Thanks Jens. As an artist it kills me to show work that is less than perfect but I thought I best prove I've got something on the verge of completion before everyone starts thinking I'm all talk & no trousers. (It's a rather peculiar English phrase! lol)

 

I have some vintage capacitors but I could leave them off if you'd like to add your own. You'd have to let me know if you've got the 5mm or 5.5mm ones & you might need to file the holes a bit yourself as the capacitors fluctuate slightly along their length.

 

(After playing around with both diameters of caps I decided that either size is acceptable since neither is the 100% authentic K rated military version & we won't know what precise diameter they really were until we find some of those. I'm still searching. Any friends of George Lucas who could measure off the MSE droid or landspeeder would be eternal heroes, forever commemorated in a special song I'd write for them! )

 

Or you could post them to me & I'd fit them for you, solder them & add the tiny extra pieces of cut-off electronics at the back.

 

Cheers, Andy

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Very cool!! Good to see work in progress pics!

 

Thanks Sergiu

[Turrican]

Those cylinders looking realy nice.

Good job man.

[Eldrik]

Hmm that would be indeed interesting if you could add them

 

Btw my capacitors are those Rob gave away for free not long ago...

 

Plz feel free to contact me when you can offer one to me!

Edited August 1, 2012 by Eldrik

[PlayfulWolfCub]

Thanks Stefan

 

Jens - I'll add you to my "no-obligation" interest list & drop you a line when they're ready. Did Marv give some away too or do you mean Rob (Matt Black)? Rob's were the 5.5mm ones. The paint finish would be better if I added the capacitors because they'd get the same finish as the rest of the unit.

 

Cheers, Andy

[matt black]

Looking really good Andy. Can't wait to get mine