Rich330[TK] Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) As you will all know, I have been working on my ROTJ costume. Along the way I have had the chance to study a lot of the screen captures and came to some conclusions of my own. I don't believe the current CRL/EIB/Centurion guidelines reflect what I believe I found. In the interest of improving our accuracy I would therefore like to propose the incorporation of my findings into the CRL and/or EIB and/or Centurion guidelines. In a nutshell, I believe that for ROTJ the costuming department adopted a similar approach to the stormtrooper costumes as in ANH, i.e. there were "stunt" and "hero" costumes. Importantly, I'm not talking about a few exceptions or continuity mistakes. I believe I have evidence of a deliberate and consistent methodology. - Just like in ANH, the "stunt" costumes are designed to be background suits, sometimes with a reduced configuration. In this case, those used to perform the stunts in the forest scenes. - The "hero" suits are those with a full configuration, very clean looking "posh" versions of the costume for closer shots. These, for me, are the main differences ... 1. Appearances: HERO: Although, sometimes seen outdoors (outside the bunker), all hero troopers are seen indoors (or emerging from the bunker) at some point. STUNT: Only ever seen outdoors in the forest (by definition performing stunts!) 2. Lenses HERO: Bubble lenses. STUNT: In general, flat green lenses. I'd even go as far to say that all the troopers seen exclusively in the forest have flat lenses. 3. Armour details HERO: A. Mostly very clean, e.g. Death Star troopers never seen outdoors. Excepeption: troopers exiting the bunker (lightly weathered). B. Full configuration, i.e. thermal detonator and holster included (I spotted only one hero trooper without a holster) STUNT: A. Always dirty/weathered. B. Often reduced configuration. Thermal detonator often removed, holster often not included. 4. Footwear HERO: Clean boots. Soles painted white. STUNT: Dirty/weathered boots. Many examples of boots with clearly visible dark soles. Probably due to wear and tear, i.e. paint flaking off. How I think these findings could be incorporated into our guidelines ... HERO 1. Armour may be clean or weathered. Clean armour always = hero. 2. Helmets should/must have bubble lenses. Bubble lenses always = hero. 3. Armour should/must have full configuration (thermal detonator and holster included). 4. Boots should/must have clean white painted soles. STUNT 1. Helmets must have flat lenses 2 Armour must be weathered. Hero armour can be weathered too but there are no clean stunt troopers! 3. Armour may have a reduced configuration, i.e. holster is optional, possibly also thermal detonator. 4. Boots must be weathered/dirty but need not have white soles. Ideally - painted white soles subsequently heavily weathered (paint scraped off) The evidence ... STUNT Stunt troopers with flat lenses (the compulsory three references found immediately!) ... Various "stunt" troopers, displaying reduced configuration of armour, weathering, dark soles etc. ... HERO Hero troopers emerging from the bunker, lightly weathered but still seemingly with full armour configuration, bubble lenses and white soles ... The more typical "strictly-indoor" hero troopers. Full configuration, clean armour, bubble lenses, white soles ... What's "wrong" with the current guidelines / conclusions / my motivation ... 2 examples: 1. Currently, to achieve Centurion status, bubble lenses are a "must have". I think this is an incorrect interpretation of the movie costumes. I have a lot of evidence of flat lenses on my "stunt" troopers. I believe this is enough evidence of a deliberate and common costume configuration. We are not dealing with isolated continuity mistakes. Flat lenses represent an equally accurate costume build as long as the rest of the costume details match (i.e. for centurion stunt flat lenses and weathering should be "must haves"). 2. None of our guidelines mention weathering at all! This is a fantastic opportunity missed in my opinion. We have to acknowledge weathering as a way of achieving an accurate Endor/stunt TK. This is more than just grime and scuffing and it gives us scope to use paint/wood varnish and a bit of artistic skill to create even more accurate costumes. And why should the sandtroopers have all the fun with acrylic paint? Of course, the building of my own suit has provoked a lot of this thought. When I finish it, it will be fully weathered (with acrylic paints), the helmet will have flat lenses, the boots will be weathered but will not have perfect white soles and I will not have a holster. I think this is a very accurate ROTJ TK costume. It reflects what I call the ROTJ "stunt" TK costume very accurately. In my opinion, it is every bit a Centurion standard build. However, as it stands, it would not even pass EIB. I would like to think we could incorporate my ideas into the current guidelines and would love to see a split set of guidelines with separate "stunt" and "hero" costumes. I believe this way we will have more scope for more accuracy and inevitably see more EIBs and Centurions. I would, of course, be willing to help in any way I can with any redrafting of guidelines. If it's not possible, i.e. the detachment decides it does not agree with my theories, or the timing is not right, I fully understand. I just hope at the very least to provoke some discussion and generate some interest in the largely ignored ROTJ TK. I've really grown to love this costume since I started my build. Edited October 19, 2011 by Rick330 Quote
gazmosis[501st] Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 I realize that the all the helmets had lowered brow lines, but they still look different somehow. I think it might be the ears. They look REALLY thinned out. This seems to give the helmets a taller appearance. Quote
Rich330[TK] Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Posted October 19, 2011 Steve, I'm not sure I follow. Quote
gazmosis[501st] Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 I spend sooooo much time looking at ANH and ESB that I never really had a chance to take a good look a ROTJ TK's. The ears just seem to not protrude as far out as in the other films. Tha actual ear part that has the rank bars on it seems about as thin as a Ritz cracker. Quote
Rich330[TK] Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) So, it didn't necessarily have anything to do with my topic? You were just looking at the photos? Edited October 19, 2011 by Rick330 Quote
bobojuice Posted October 19, 2011 Report Posted October 19, 2011 I fully agree with everything stated in the first post! Now, I just have to decide which version I'm going to make. I spend sooooo much time looking at ANH and ESB that I never really had a chance to take a good look a ROTJ TK's. The ears just seem to not protrude as far out as in the other films. Tha actual ear part that has the rank bars on it seems about as thin as a Ritz cracker. They are super thin. See JoeR's post. I thought this picture of the ear moulds might help to show how thin the original ones were trimmed. Awesome work Rich, keep the pictures coming! JoeR Quote
Daetrin[Admin] Posted October 22, 2011 Report Posted October 22, 2011 Amazing detective work Rich and these are details no one has ever surfaced in a detailed analysis. You make some excellent points on how we can improve our standards for ROTJ, and the supporting screen caps are much needed. I'd like to ask if you're willing, that you take the current CRL for ROTJ and create a new version based on your recommendations, e.g.strike-through text that you feel is not appropriate and use say green text for new addtions. When that is complete, it can be posted for final comments before creating a poll to ammend the standards. Does that sound like a positive path forward? Quote
Rich330[TK] Posted October 22, 2011 Author Report Posted October 22, 2011 Amazing detective work Rich and these are details no one has ever surfaced in a detailed analysis. You make some excellent points on how we can improve our standards for ROTJ, and the supporting screen caps are much needed. I'd like to ask if you're willing, that you take the current CRL for ROTJ and create a new version based on your recommendations, e.g.strike-through text that you feel is not appropriate and use say green text for new addtions. When that is complete, it can be posted for final comments before creating a poll to ammend the standards. Does that sound like a positive path forward? I'll do just that when I get a moment. Be glad to. Quote
BGHUNTER Posted October 23, 2011 Report Posted October 23, 2011 Great thread, another thing that seems to stick out is the heros troopers from the scenes in the bunkers, The black around the teeth seem to thicker, Quote
Rich330[TK] Posted October 23, 2011 Author Report Posted October 23, 2011 Here are the drafts of my proposed split CRLs then .... I kept the same formatting as the originals (i.e. blue = EIB, red = Centurion) Additions are highlighted yellow. Comments are highlighted green. Things to be removed are crossed out. Quote
bobojuice Posted November 3, 2011 Report Posted November 3, 2011 I was looking at this image on the Christie's website: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/ZoomImage.aspx?image=/lotfinderimages/d55053/d5505302&IntObjectID=5505302 If you zoom into the belt, you can see the ammo part has 45 degree cuts. Should this be added or fixed in the CRL as accurate? Quote
troopermaster Posted November 3, 2011 Report Posted November 3, 2011 That is not an ROTJ suit nor is it an ROTJ belt, so you can't use this for any comparisons. Quote
Locitus[Admin] Posted November 3, 2011 Report Posted November 3, 2011 Awww That is not an ROTJ suit nor is it an ROTJ belt, so you can't use this for any comparisons. Awww. What is it then? Tour suit? Quote
troopermaster Posted November 3, 2011 Report Posted November 3, 2011 No, it's not a tour suit. It's a mixture of ESB and ESB MKII. Quote
Locitus[Admin] Posted November 3, 2011 Report Posted November 3, 2011 Ah, okey. Those suits till confuse me. :S Quote
bobojuice Posted November 3, 2011 Report Posted November 3, 2011 No, it's not a tour suit. It's a mixture of ESB and ESB MKII. Thanks for clearing that up, Paul. Quote
McQ Posted February 22, 2012 Report Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Any update on this? +1. Great investigation with enlightening results, Rich. As someone who will be asking for my first 501st clearance (aiming as high/accurate as possible) with weathered ROTJ armour, I'm quite keen to learn if the CRL is going to be changing soon. Edited February 22, 2012 by McQ Quote
Locitus[Admin] Posted February 22, 2012 Report Posted February 22, 2012 I would be willing to put up a poll on this, to get the ball rolling. Quote
Sparrow Posted February 22, 2012 Report Posted February 22, 2012 Agreed. It would be nice to add some variety to the ROTJ. Get some different looks. Quote
Rich330[TK] Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Looks like we're going to get moving on this. Mathias has asked me for photos of my "Endor Stunt" armour for revised CRLs. I'll post them here ... Quote
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