Centurion Requirements : ANH Stunt Discussion

[Runnriottt]

I think you should specify Humbrol colors for the buttons.

 

If you are picking out rivets, there has to be a source posted on them. Willy nilly rivets and buttons are could kill a costume.

 

 

What bugs me the most...

 

A scuffed up helmet... and a clean suit.

 

While I know that the real helmet was a different plastic than the suit, (at least that is what I remember) it just throws it all off to me.

 

Looking at this shot... you can see scuffs in the armor. I am sure that it was not intended to be picked apart some 30 years later... but hey... we do this kinda thing. If the suits are not matched to the helmet it just looks like a bad helmet paint job.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2011 by Runnriottt

[ObiHahn[TK]]

What bugs me the most...

 

A scuffed up helmet... and a clean suit.

 

That's why the sensible elitist armor snob chooses to go for a scuffed up helmet and a scuffed up suit.

Tantive IV raid style all the way! Even throw in a couple strips of white gaffa.

 

The nature of the original helmets (for ANH and ESB) being a darker, non-white plastic than the suits lends itself to the effect of "heavier" chipping on helmets than ever to be seen on the suits.

So I don't really see a problem with slightly heavier weathering of a helmet than seen on the suit (HPDE chipping is the magic formula here). It's like in the movies!

[Locitus[Admin]]

The trooper standing on the right side of vader in the small pic with red background posted above looks really wierd btw, with grey stunt frown, bubble lenses and ESB handplates.... :S

[ObiHahn[TK]]

All of my above statements are only valid for ANH stunt and most ESB helmets (minus the elusive ESB hero lids), of course. Forgot to specify, sorry.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

I think the updates are good, and the open questions are up for vote? Like biceps overlap and such?

 

Dennis, I'm going to break out the most open questions for separate vote. I mean, the EI requirements have been built up over years and didn't sprint out fully formed, so I think we can at least start with a base of what the majority agree on and move up from there.

 

My expectation is that just like EI and Police Officer standards, the Centurion will not be static but will have to be revised every few years as accurate props/mods get easier/less expensive and better information becomes available.

 

Hard to believe but the MEPD Police Officer standards of 2005 (when I joined) are pretty much Legion CRL now, and thus the Police Officer standards were significantly upgraded in 2008, and now we have SWAT, etc. Heck, the original EI standards allowed FX helmets, if you'll recall.

[FIVE[501st]]

OK, updates made. Please review and do let me know if I mssed anything. I'll leave this up for the rest of the week before moving final break-outs to the detachment only area.

The only thing I notice is under Ab Plate is says, 'Question: Should we specify a single snap must be visible on the crotch tab? If so, what size/spacing?'... even though it's still a question it should say, 'Question: Should we specify a single brads/split rivets must be visible on the crotch tab? If so, what size/spacing?'

 

Good jorb!

[Runnriottt]

The trooper standing on the right side of vader in the small pic with red background posted above looks really wierd btw, with grey stunt frown, bubble lenses and ESB handplates.... :S

 

 

Its an ESB trooper... Just an illustration of my point. Vader's right is an ROTJ.

[Locitus[Admin]]

Its an ESB trooper... Just an illustration of my point. Vader's right is an ROTJ.

These promo pics are so confusing sometimes.

[tkrestonva[TK]]

I think you should specify Humbrol colors for the buttons.

 

... and/or their Testors equivalents, as it's my understanding that Humbrol has changed their formulation since the mid-70s, and actually the Testors is now closer to what is seen on screen.

 

FWIW, I totally agree with a separate recognition program for prop replication that is not tied to 501st regulations - after we address the immediate task of ironing out Centurion. While the core mission of the FISD is to serve the needs of the 501st Legion (something that must always be kept central in everyone's mind), we have a sizeable membership that is neither 501st nor intends to be and is interested in the pinnacle of prop accuracy. The detachment as a whole benefits from having them active and engaged, and I believe a way can be found to serve that group's desires as well.

[sskunky]

 

good eye. i never noticed that before. flat lenses (stunt) with 3 teeth (hero) all in one helmet. next time i watch, i'll have to look at their frowns a lil closer.

Have you noticed how their forearms are trimmed very differently too.....?

[firebladejedi[TK]]

I get all my ideas on what to do from reference material freely available..

 

 

Congratulations.

 

But that pic rememberd me immediatly what bothers me most, when seeing Stormies (or others). It´s not any biceps overlap or helmet versions.

 

It´s the plastic guns, more specifically: their lack of weight. It immediatly looks completly wrong how a person moves with a to light equipment. You move in a specific way as you have to handle some weight.

 

I´ve read the "try to troop with xyz all day" - but that´s exactly what real soldiers do, too. If you can´t hold it - get stronger.

 

I´m not suggesting that everyone should use a real Sterling, no way - but it might be not the badest idea to request some weight in the guns. Like "plastic or whatever for starters is fine, EIB needs half the weight of a full up-greeblied Sterling, and Centurion must have the full weight".

 

Just my 2 cents. From a unbiased outside, not trooping, point.

[john danter]

I think this should be in terms of what you see in an average and clearly intended sense...?

 

You can't base this on a one example of what you may see for a split second on screen.

That means I can have no shoulder bell, an open calf, a bicep with no sealing strip etc....Common sense it be based on an average of what most of the TKs have.

 

As for body specific costume appearance.....

Overlapping biceps is clearly not going to work, as is people with larger body frames.

I didn's see any 14 stone 6'2" TK walking about but we clear them. Does this mean the larger among us won't be going for this award then?

It's NOT seen on screen

 

I'm short so my biceps do hide inside my bell.

 

But what we can do, regardless of our body size is replication of what you see on the outisde.

So those pretty flower rivets down the sides etc, fine. Doesn't have to be the wire brackets etc on the inside as no one ever sees that.

 

I realise this may not be aimed at 501st guys but that's not the point. There will be members here who will want both.

A troopable 501st clearable costume and a prop replication.......on an average sense (i.e NOT Mr No Stripes)

 

As for chipped helmets... Na

 

They were NOT intended to be like that.

Does many promotional material exist showing these banged up TKS? Not much. Most is pristine TKS

 

If you track the film from 1st shot scenes to final 8 months later shot scenes, you see the flakes slowly start to appear. they're not there from day 1 of filming.

And hen Lucas wanted close up of TKS (Han and Luke) he asked for pristine ABS versions to be made...

Obvious why in my eyes

 

As for all the rivets etc, yes. Great idea

Edited March 10, 2011 by john danter

[v7sg[TK]]

I think this should be in terms of what you see in an average and clearly intended sense...?

 

You can't base this on a one example of what you may see for a split second on screen.

That means I can have no shoulder bell, an open calf, a bicep with no sealing strip etc....Common sense it be based on an average of what most of the TKs have.

 

As for body specific costume appearance.....

Overlapping biceps is clearly not going to work, as is people with larger body frames.

I didn's see any 14 stone 6'2" TK walking about but we clear them. Does this mean the larger among us won't be going for this award then?

It's NOT seen on screen

 

I'm short so my biceps do hide inside my bell.

 

But what we can do, regardless of our body size is replication of what you see on the outisde.

So those pretty flower rivets down the sides etc, fine. Doesn't have to be the wire brackets etc on the inside as no one ever sees that.

 

I realise this may not be aimed at 501st guys but that's not the point. There will be members here who will want both.

A troopable 501st clearable costume and a prop replication.......on an average sense (i.e NOT Mr No Stripes)

 

As for chipped helmets... Na

 

They were NOT intended to be like that.

Does many promotional material exist showing these banged up TKS? Not much. Most is pristine TKS

 

If you track the film from 1st shot scenes to final 8 months later shot scenes, you see the flakes slowly start to appear. they're not there from day 1 of filming.

And hen Lucas wanted close up of TKS (Han and Luke) he asked for pristine ABS versions to be made...

Obvious why in my eyes

 

As for all the rivets etc, yes. Great idea

 

I agree with you John, we must remember that for the 501st guys, we cannot discriminate by build, height, sex, etc, so if we made the Centurion bar too high, is a kind of discrimination. I agree with the rivets and stuff, but there are certain aspects that I think are going too far.

[carbonitekid]

1 issue I've had mentioned to me by a few people is the rivets on the sniper plate. Alot of them are saying that its nigh on impossible to glue the knee plate on both sides on kits such as the regular 2mm TM.

 

Cosidering the allowance of "heavier" troopers with large shims in the sides are 2 small rivets really that noticeable?

 

I'm all for uping standards, hell I've peed off enough members on here with my views of late, but the fact that a 20stone TK with huge shims in the sides would be considered more acurate than a regular sized trooper with 2 rivets on his knees is ludicrous.

[john danter]

I'm all for uping standards, hell I've peed off enough members on here with my views of late, but the fact that a 20stone TK with huge shims in the sides would be considered more acurate than a regular sized trooper with 2 rivets on his knees is ludicrous.

 

Bingo Matt

 

If you want to be that accurate you'd have to morph your body shape....

 

People don't do that, they assume we'll make a compromise.

So those people who try and set that bar so high, should in all honesty, do the same

[BlueGrot]

If my 6'3" butt isn't Centurion certified I'm gonna find my chainsaw.

Edited March 10, 2011 by BlueGrot

[FIVE[501st]]

I agree with John on this too.

 

Like I just said over on the MEPD — and keep in mind ours is already up and going and we're still having questions — if it's an OBVIOUS anomaly, we shouldn't hold someone to it. Radio dials painted black on the "move along" trooper's pack was something the prop guys did on purpose. The duct tape on the shoulder bell of the same trooper wasn't "on purpose"... it was just something that happened.

 

As for shoulder bells and such, I say we have to go with the idea of, "if there had been a variety of heights and weights of TKs in the film, what would have fit in with the 'obvious' and 'intentional' rule?"

[Turrican]

I think one big thing is fact here.

Some guys think that this centurion level should be possible for each one without any cut back.

For all types of armor, for fat and slim, tall and small....

Well so it isn't, if they want this they should go for EIB.

And till they not understand this, we never will come all to the same consent.

Centurion level for that how it was "seen" on screen not more not less,do it right or let it, but don't do it the half way.

[ObiHahn[TK]]

I do get that the goal for centurion is not prop replication. Those seeking that go to other places to do so.

 

Body sizes, if humanly average and acceptable ( ) should be no reason to exclude people from striving for more accurate costumes, sure. Especially in the 501st context. Set for fun, if you will. It's only fair.

 

But still...let's not set the bar for a new program like this too low like it always happens here after pages of discussions and opinions.

Every visible detail should be in place, every brad/rivet - and only in the appropriate places as clearly seen in movies and publicity or even archive materials. And no shortcuts should be taken here - glued only on the movie costume? Glue it for Centurion then. At least on the outside, guys.

 

Allow chipped helmets for stunt - for Pete's sake, that is how they were made. Even visibly so in the movie.

For hero configuratin, that is another matter. Hero helmets could not have flaking paint, yeah. All replicas should accuratley reflect this, but so should HDPE stunt helmet replicas. Chipping should be optional at least.

 

Wan't slightly lower standard? Guys, we already have those. They are called EIB.

Lower standards even? Oh look, 501st base CRLs!

 

Another 2 cents from yours truly.

[Daetrin[Admin]]

OK guys, I think we have enough on the public Q&A that we've nailed this down pretty good.

 

In preparate for voting which will start next week, I've created a Det-Only Q&A at

http://forum.whitearmor.net/index.php?showtopic=14854

 

We will get a bulk email out over the weekend so that our fellow troopers who don't visit the boards much get a reminder and a chance to review as well.

[SuperTrooper]

Wan't slightly lower standard? Guys, we already have those. They are called EIB.

Lower standards even? Oh look, 501st base CRLs!

Actually the CRLs are a reference, the base standards are actually lower than the CRLs text. This is being looked at from the wrong end. Instead of lower and lower standards to should be seen as higher and higher with encouragement for troopers to achieve instead of looking down on others. Some on the FISD are at the top % of what's possible and it's unrealistic to have a program that is that high.

 

 

If you look at the SLD program there is for Vader the base standard then for the first tier you have to have one major and one minor upgrade, and for the second tier it's three major and minor upgrades. The Vader I got approved already meets the second tier and then some witch isn't difficult to hit if you do your homework, but the goal is getting people to make a few upgrades bringing up the overall level on a broader scope.

 

The goal of centurion is not prop replication, it's between EIB and prop replication while staying within the confines of what is 501st acceptable. People need to stop with the assumption that just because an actual prop was done this way makes it Legion acceptable is not correct. You have to remember the 501st is a costuming club not a prop group.

[ObiHahn[TK]]

Always sounds like these extra encouragement programs should be obtainable effortlessly by everyone.

Where's the point in that? The "good enough for me" guys will never shoot for EIB anyways, much less for Centurion or whatever else might be up your sleeves.

 

That's why I don't get some of the tendencies to exclude some external, clear-as-day onscreen armor details from these kinda programs.

IMHO it's not like this will make less people join the 501st or something, but will be more attractive for people who do not necessarily seperate "costuming club"/"prop repliaction". There is a substantial overlap between these two, I'm sure...

[tkrestonva[TK]]

Since the discussion has now begun in the Det-only area, I'm closing this thread to avoid splinter debates.