Is it right to hoard information?

[sskunky]

I just thought I would start a thread on the topic of keeping information etc to yourself when it could help everyone attain more accurate costumes?

It's a very hot subject.

I agree that newbies should do their homework but how can they if all the information and details and photos are kept secret?

Yes it's alot of work researching all the little details and finding out original makes and parts. But that's what I find the fun bit and to me it makes it all the better of I can share that with the community.

I would also like to give you guys the chance to share any related info you feel may be unknown and post it here with your own views on this matter of "I found this out why should I tell you " attitude.

Let the games begin.

[R2Dan[TK]]

Sorry Mark...

 

edit: Thought I'd explain: There are two extremes to this argument, and a lot of people who are somewhere in between. Both sides have their fair points, also both sides seem to think they're on a holy mission, explaining all the tension.

Still I think both sides have been clearly stated and there's not much you can do. Do you think this thread will give us new information? I highly doubt it. It'll simply turn into a shucksstorm and won't help either party.

Edited October 15, 2010 by R2Dan

[sskunky]

Dan,

You might think im flogging an old Donkey but the only reason I started this thread is because the topic gets bought up time and time again in other threads and takes them off topic. Here it is on topic.

I personally don't agree with info hoarding but that's my opinion. And yes everyone is going to have their opinion as do you. But here is the place to air it.

 

So do you agree with it or not. Just to tell me I can't discuss it isn't helping anyone either.

Edited October 15, 2010 by sskunky

[sskunky]

I just thought I should clarify a bit. I'm not here to judge you on wether or not you agree to horde info to yourself but just to find out what you think. If you do agree, why? If you don't, Why?

It's a discussion nothing more.

[Rich330[TK]]

just to find out what you think. If you do agree, why? If you don't, Why?

 

I'm sorry but I cannot divulge that information as I am currently hoarding it for myself.

[R2Dan[TK]]

Dan,

You might think im flogging an old Donkey but the only reason I started this thread is because the topic gets bought up time and time again in other threads and takes them off topic. Here it is on topic.

 

Fair point there!

 

I'm not seeing it quite as black-and-white.

 

There is a huge wealth of information on the original suits available, yet people still praise FX as a great Stormtrooper kit. And as the GMO of the German Garrison I get a LOT of "WHERE DO I GET A PERFECT TROOPER NOW!?" messages, and I always tell them to do their research first and ask educated questions if they want my help.

 

I don't see why this is any different for "high accuracy" levels.

Of course I appreciated when the Lucasfilm pictures were made available, as I've been eager to see them for quite a while. However, most of the information I had already seen before, through other channels and a little more low profile. So I'm probably a hoarder, too. However, I didn't demand knowing all "secrets" and I didn't make a big deal out of it after seeing them, even when I talked about it to friends...

 

Would I like to know the name of the brand of the original shoes? Yep! Do I hate TM for not sharing it? Nope. It's something that the hardest of hardcore TK nutters want to know, and he sure is one.

 

It's really just these small little details we're talking about here now. There's not much left out there in the TK world that is still shrouded in mystery. Those details are interesting for PROP enthusiasts (which I know you are just as much as I am), not for the general costuming community. And I'm glad I have some stuff still left do discover.

 

Btw, I didn't say you can't discuss it, I just said it's been discussed at length and there's no happy "we're all one big TK family" land where we will all run around through HDPE coloured fields in some old 70's chelsea boots.

Edited October 15, 2010 by R2Dan

[stormtrooperguy[501st]]

I see no reason to hoard anything unless it's a case where LFL has directly said "don't share this".

 

To use the example of the trooper boots. Were it me, I would have gotten my own first (I'm not a saint!) then posted the details for everyone else. Why? Because to me it doesn't benefit me at all to keep it private.

 

This is the same general idea as recasting... I allow anyone to recast my clone stuff that wants to. I just don't care

 

I subscribe to the Open Source Software idea that information wants to be free. It's something that you can give away and still have for yourself. There's not a lot out there like that. If I have $20 and I give you $20, I now have $0. If I know how a screen used suit was strapped together, and I tell you, I still know it.

 

A great recent example from the Fett world is the Grant McCune Fett helmet that Art Andrews just got. It's a VERY early generation cast of the PP2 Fett. One of only 2 known to exist. Rather than keeping it to himself it's been molded and he's making casts available for less than you pay for most fan made kits. Why? Because he wants all Fett fans to have a chance to have something like that.

 

To me, that's the model we should all follow. He got access to an amazing thing that only 2 people in the world have... and decided to share openly with the world.

[R2Dan[TK]]

Isn't that what TM did as well? He got the Lucasfilm CDs, yeah, didn't share them, okay. But he offered his sculpt of the ANH armour featuring tells that many of us didn't know about or just had overlooked while looking at the available reference. Isn't that sharing as well?

 

I'm not trying to defend him or am saying he's a saint, just saying it's not as black and white...

Edited October 15, 2010 by R2Dan

[ObiHahn[TK]]

Why not let everyone who unearthed a particular detail about a costume or prop decide for himself if he feels like sharing it with the community?

People in general seem to just assume recently it is a duty to not keep certain aspects to oneself. Mostly even without contributing something to the community themselves: it's easy to demand things from others if you are not the one who has anything to share.

 

Show your gratitude to those who share and just leave the ones who don't share alone, it's that simple, to me at least.

 

Showing up as a mob with torches on a "hoarder's" porch won't change his mind to share, will it? Maybe asking quietly and in a non-demanding way is a better way to approach someone who knows/has something you might want...

 

That's my 2cts, I sure as heck don't mean to offend any one person in particular, I'm only trying to illustrate my point so everybody gets it.

Edited October 15, 2010 by ObiHahn

[Daetrin[Admin]]

I think the very reason we have a forum at all is to share information, else why are we here?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/10/15/how.to.innovate/index.html?hpt=C2

 

"What I'm saying is individuals have better ideas if they're connected to rich, diverse networks of other individuals. If you put yourself in an environment with lots of different perspectives, you yourself are going to have better, sharper, more original ideas," he told Salon.

 

What Paul - or anyone else - does or not to reveal his information is entirely up to him, and I don't judge him for it. And, it's not like flaunting a store of hidden information is a habit of his, unlike some others in the community.

 

I'd suggest if someone really wants to know instead of beating up on Paul they just do their own research. I've only been at this 5 years and confess I don't really frequent other boards like RPF much, but secrets are really hard to keep secret and sooner or later the information all comes out anyway, just like TE's photo disk. I'm sure even TE know it would all surface, which is why he charged so much and put different sets of images on each disk to at least make it expensive for the community to compile all those photos.

[troopermaster]

The brand name of the boots was given to me in confidence 'after' I had done all the hard work locating them. Now, if I am given the all clear to reveal the brand then I will do so. If I just give the brand name away because someone demands to know and I go against the original boot owners wishes, I am not going to be trusted again. So as you can see, it's not a case of me wanting to hoard the info, more like keeping my end of the deal.

[Scootch[TK]]

Hoarding is freaky

[Defiance7x13[TK]]

For someone like myself who had no idea of where to begin in starting a TK, this site was a god send. I mean it really did take all the hard work out of researching, as im sure many of the early member's would of had to spend months and months researching to gather enough resources otherwise. And with said provided resources, there isn't any reason I can see that most able minded people couldn't get the needed supplies together and build a authentic looking suit. That really is "Troopers helping Troopers" in the truest form.

 

As far as what boots,"internal strapping" or even helmet padding originally used on the set. In truth, the answers to these questions will not cure cancer or solve the problem of cold fusion. If someone doesn't want to spill the beans about what they found out, the lack of information really is going stop anyone else from continuing to build an authentic looking suits or in general improve life as we know it. The only thing the lack of knowledge denies you is the ability to participate in the Fan-boy pissing contest that it "my suit is more accurate than yours". You all know that the general public lacks the knowledge and understanding that makes it possible to care about such things. As long as they see "real" looking storm trooper they are happy. (The fact that people are willing to mob Rubies wearers for picture says it all)

 

But what it does prove is, that the information is "out there" and if you want it for yourself, all you have to do is little investigation maybe paired with some footwork. If one person can discover it for themselves, why cant anyone else? I mean it didn't stop them originally, did it? No one expects armor makers to hand out copies of their molds so any "joe" that wants pull their own can do it. Why would anyone expect any different from anyone else.

 

My view isn't meant as a dig at anyone. I personally, was very naive when I first contacted my local garrison. And my questions & the request that I made, though at the time sounded innocent enough. After I educated myself by researching on my own for a short time, I now see my words as very rude and even disrespectful.

 

What I forgot was, much like anything else in life. Don't go out expecting a hand out, otherwise your most liking going to return disappointed and empty handed. Instead I choose to go out willing to do the hard work to accomplish my goal. And most of the time I succeed. In this case I been able to obtain 95% my goals so far of: obtaining the "materials" necessary complete a suit to 501st clearance and be done before the "trooping season" officially got underway. My suit is done, I should have the "final" piece soon. And all of this was completed without anyone having to share anything that wasn't already out there.

 

Sure I cant show off my suit to impress a fan boy who froths at the mouth when explaining what frame rate Lucas shot Episode IV in. But when I walk out my front door all suited up, all my neighbors are looking out their windows or coming outside to take pictures me, people who happen to drive by light up wide eyed, and kids stand around gawking in awe. To me that says I did a damn good job, and that's good enough for me.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Defiance7x13

[sskunky]

I didn't start this thread to have a go at anyone and Paul, I'm sorry you think it's aimed at you. It's Aimed at everyone who does it.

What I don't like is that people tell everyone they know or have information yet can't/ won't share it.

Yeah it's your decision but if you feel the need to keep it to yourself for whatever reason why bring it up in the first place?

That's what bugs me.

[trooper18938]

I agree with those who have accumulated the information.... remember it wasn't too far back when we thought Marco suits were the bomb? Noobies here have it a lot easier than we did......and they have to remember that!

 

TM keep the name as you see fit, remember what happened when camera people learned that their old rusty Graflex's could be sold to star wars geeks? Information like this is prop specific, and has a place on another forum... there are many acceptable white boots available on this one.

 

For me, all I want for christmas is a picture of the Original "Hovi Mix Pa2" Soda dispenser/ ?mic?........

[TK bondservnt[501st]]

I think open source has it's merits, but for a software designer who makes money selling their code,

doesn't it make sense for them to protect their investment in training for several years to be

able to write code at all? I mean it's one thing to give away your own take on some

assembly of code that's already written in modules, but to give everything away for free

is just not possible in the real world.

 

look at how this "everything is free" society has become?

 

my family was in the music business since 1952, and as SOON as the ability for pirates,

and "recasters" surfaced in the music biz. an ENTIRE segment of the retail marketplace

ceased to exist. when the CD burner, and mp3 filetype came out, that ENDED

our ability to make a living.

 

huge segments of people who actually feed their children, and make a living from

knowing somthing that other's don't know are being replaced by concepts like:

 

youtube: how can a videographer make money when everyone can film and produce video?

this website alone eliminated video as a money making venture. nobody makes money filming anymore.

(I know, that's what I decided to venture into after the CD was eliminated, another segment becomes obsolete)

 

if you're a web designer then you know what I'm talking about here,

 

myspace/facebook: how can a web designer who has studied several languages, and protocols going to make

money selling websites, and advertising when myspace allowed everyone to become a designer?

 

entire segments of training, and technical skills have been eliminated in the marketplace because

formerly HOARDED information, and special contacts simply vanished in the name of "advancement"

 

so as we near the end of the "secret" stormtrooper information, many members of the prop community

can see the writing on the wall.

 

I think that keeping special information to one self, is a way of protecting your investment

in the ability to sell a product.

 

for the makers of armor, having the holy grail of "prop replication" done to the level of rocket science

should be respected for their understanding of a very esoteric subject.

 

little things like the brand of boot, the size and shape of a set of rivets.

the brand of a snap.

 

these little details are important to the prop replicator/ armor salesman.

 

if I want to understand and own all the little secrets, then maybe I should support the community

and purchase that information from the vendor and be happy knowing that I've done

the best I can to support that artist's way of offering information.

 

all on a plate? yeah... eventually everything will come out in the open...

[vicsouders]

Why not let everyone who unearthed a particular detail about a costume or prop decide for himself if he feels like sharing it with the community?

People in general seem to just assume recently it is a duty to not keep certain aspects to oneself. Mostly even without contributing something to the community themselves: it's easy to demand things from others if you are not the one who has anything to share.

 

 

I was going to stay out of this, but I agree with Dennis. However, I'm a believer in; if you're going to keep it to yourself, then keep it totally to yourself. I personally don't enjoy threads that read something like: "look what I have, no I'm not going to tell you what it is or how I got it." It's too close to bragging in my opinion. "Look! I got the EXACT ear screws used by trooper #3 in the 'Stop that ship!' scene." Guess what? No, you didn't unless they came out of that bucket. Times change, materials change, and manufacturing processes change. You have ear screws from the same manufacturer, that's all. Cool, but sort of; meh. (Disclaimer) My post isn't meant to make anyone angry, it's just my opinion.

 

(edit for punctuation)

Edited October 15, 2010 by vicsouders

[sskunky]

I was going to stay out of this, but I agree with Dennis. However, I'm a believer in; if you're going to keep it to yourself, then keep it totally to yourself. I personally don't enjoy threads that read something like: "look what I have, no I'm not going to tell you what it is or how I got it." It's too close to bragging in my opinion. "Look! I got the EXACT ear screws used by trooper #3 in the 'Stop that ship!' scene." Guess what? No, you didn't unless they came out of that bucket. Times change, materials change, and manufacturing processes change. You have ear screws from the same manufacturer, that's all. Cool, but sort of; meh. (Disclaimer) My post isn't meant to make anyone angry, it's just my opinion.

 

(edit for punctuation)

That's what I'm talking about. If you don't want to share don't say anything to start with. Enjoy what you have but don't flaunt it in peoples faces and not expect a reaction.

[gh05ty]

That's what I'm talking about. If you don't want to share don't say anything to start with. Enjoy what you have but don't flaunt it in peoples faces and not expect a reaction.

 

This just seems sensible to me, if you have something that you know others would be interested in and dont want to/cant share it then keep it to yourself until such time as you can/will share, i dont wish to upset anyone but this kind of "ive got this and you cant have it" is just childish showing off and has no place on a forum that prides itself in helping others.

[poisonfox]

Jeez, with all the resources we have now and how forthcoming people (especially Troopermaster) are with amazing products and references I would have hoped that we could overlook those few things that are still kept close to the chest. I am able to be happy for somebody when they find some rare thing, be it info or a pair of boots, and not mind if they hold onto that knowledge for themselves. It's nice to have a little mystery left, right?

[TK-4510[501st]]

I hate it when people keep secrets....but I love it too!!! The suspense keeps me interested and adds mystique to the hobby. If it were all out in the open I would quickly loose interest in most of this stuff. When the TE armor first came on the scene and TE and Gino were arguing about details and accusing each other of recasting I couldnt get enough!!!! The excitement that the debates would cause on the boards was awesome. When neither would divulge anything it always caused a stir. Occasionally we would get a hand out from them and that was exciting. Of course I hated them for it too! Remember when TE said that the armor was held together with rivets that looked like flowers? We all laughed at him. BUT HE WAS RIGHT!!! There are rivets on the armor that are like flowers or stars. Paul found out who made the boots and kept it a mystery and that pissed me off too I do love it though. I say keep your secrets and keep the new guys guessing

[riveting]

I'll sit on both sides of this fence,

 

Yep I like to share if I find something off my own bat but if I've been told something in confidence then thats where it stays, never to be passed on I don't actually feel it's my info to share in the first place, it's the guy's who told me & it's upto their descretion if they want it open for all.

[Calculon]

As a newbie to this I say, "Thank you for sharing."

 

As an Army (Reserve) Intel officer, unless you have a reason not to divulge the info I say, "Put up or shut up."

 

Cheers!

 

BTW, I love this forum!!!

[firebladejedi[TK]]

I aggree with mike and steve, well put

[Lupex[TK]]

The brand name of the boots was given to me in confidence 'after' I had done all the hard work locating them. Now, if I am given the all clear to reveal the brand then I will do so. If I just give the brand name away because someone demands to know and I go against the original boot owners wishes, I am not going to be trusted again. So as you can see, it's not a case of me wanting to hoard the info, more like keeping my end of the deal.

 

I know that this thread isn't about you specifically Paul, but you have been featured on a recent thread where this has come up. Now that I know the above info and that you are not 'hoarding' for hoarding sake then it does all make sense and I would not have asked for you to share the info, which seemed to have opened up an old wound (soor 'bout that ).

 

Unfortunately the above wasn't made clear and from first read of that thread to me, as a noob, you did come across as a bit of an an impolite person (soory). But the above puts everything in perspective and if it had been shared the first time you were asked, then it might have stopped some of the subsequent flaming that I stumbled into.

 

I would love to spend the time to research all the information that I need to make the perfect TK but I don't have the time, but would still like to have the best kit I can and so will use all the information that is currently available.

 

I am very grateful to all those that have shared their knowledge and expertise, and cracking suits of armour, and I just wish that I had something that I could give back.